In this episode of Coach Conversations, Brendon Le Lievre is joined by Abbie Boulter for a thoughtful and energising conversation about coaching, career identity, listening, and the tension many professionals feel between achievement, fulfilment, and recognition.
Together, they explore how coaching often begins long before formal training, and how many coaches discover they have been holding reflective conversations throughout their careers long before they ever called it coaching. While identifying the power of coach specific training to identify and use these skills more intentionally.
The conversation dives into themes including:
- Helping people articulate their value and tell better stories about themselves
- Why recognition and being seen matter more than many professionals admit
- The role of listening, silence, and presence in coaching conversations
- Coaching leaders who arrive expecting the coach to “have the answers”
- Slowing down in order to think more clearly and lead more intentionally
- The emotional energy required to coach well and sustainably
- Building businesses and careers that create both impact and joy
- Letting go of guilt, noise, and unnecessary friction
Brendon and Abbie also discuss the reality of modern coaching work, including online coaching, group coaching, professional identity, and the challenge of staying present when life and work become overly busy.
This is a reflective and practical conversation for coaches, leaders, facilitators, and anyone navigating questions of meaning, growth, career direction, and how to create more ease in the way they live and work.
Abbie’s Bio
Abbie Boulter is an executive and leadership coach, facilitator and the creator of Reclaim, an online program helping high-performing professionals step out of autopilot and reconnect with what they truly want from their career.
With over 20 years of experience across corporate, scale-up, government and purpose-driven environments, Abbie works with leaders and teams navigating growth, change, complexity and career transition. Her work blends practical action with deep insight into human behaviour, helping people gain clarity, strengthen confidence and communicate their value with greater impact.
Known for building trust quickly and creating grounded, honest conversations, Abbie brings a warm, down-to-earth approach that balances challenge with support. Whether coaching senior executives, facilitating leadership workshops, or guiding people through career reinvention, her focus is always on helping people move forward with intention and courage.
Connect with Abbie
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abbieboulter/
Website: https://www.abbieboulter.com/
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon Le Lievre: Hello, and welcome to the Coach Conversations podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. I’m Brendon Le Lievre, and today I’m joined by Abby Boulter. How did you find coaching Abby, or how did it find you?
[00:00:21] Abbie Boulter: Oh, um, I think I found it. I was working in a large corporate and just not being lit up by the work that I did, which to be honest, I probably knew on day one, if I’m honest, having always been in startup entrepreneurial world. Um, but I was there for a reason. It was good at that time of life. I was learning a lot, so I needed to find something that brought me joy, something that was gonna keep me there.
[00:00:55] Abbie Boulter: Um, and my background is brand and marketing, and I was working in an organization where you said, “What do you do?” And they go, “I’m a chartered accountant. I’m a tax person. I’m a consultant.” And so I set out to do their personal branding. So it was a side hustle, a side interest, a side play, whatever you wanna call it.
[00:01:19] Abbie Boulter: Certainly not part of my job description. Um, and so I did one-on-one personal brand coaching at that point, and also ran workshops, and that’s where I found coaching. It found me, but, um, in a totally unofficial capacity until I decided to make that my new thing, and went and did the studies, and did a whole heap of it, and surrounded myself with other coaches so I could learn.
[00:01:49] Abbie Boulter: So I’m not sure if I found it or it found me, but I’m certainly happy it did
[00:01:56] Brendon Le Lievre: How do you think finding it changed the, the direction of your life?
[00:02:01] Abbie Boulter: Oh, well, I now work for myself, so 100%. Um, I knew I wasn’t in the same corporate world, that’s for sure. Um, like, and when I say corporate world, I mean the big cog in a, cog in a wheel. Just, that, that doesn’t work for me. Um, but I took that personal brand coaching and facilitation and then went to this amazing social enterprise as their general manager with the confidence that I knew I could seriously have an impact on people’s lives.
[00:02:33] Abbie Boulter: And in there I did talent coaching for people who were looking to open up more opportunities for part-time flexible work. That might have been parents, carers, professional sports people, portfolio p- careers. Um, and that’s the first time I think really in my career I went, “I can get paid for actually having an impact and immediately see that impact.” And if I’m honest, it’s kind of what I had always done. So no matter what my role was, I was that person that would be having conversations with people about their career and what they want, for my friends. And suddenly I went, “Hey, I think I can actually get paid for this, spend my time doing this.” Um, so that’s, that’s how I now do what I do.
[00:03:28] Abbie Boulter: So 100% it changed the trajectory of my life, and I love it.
[00:03:35] Brendon Le Lievre: You know, I regularly pinch myself that, and I have to keep saying to myself, “You’re allowed to enjoy what you do and get paid for it.”
[00:03:45] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. And it,
[00:03:46] Brendon Le Lievre: things can be true.
[00:03:47] Abbie Boulter: Right? And I think sometimes, and I, I don’t know about you, but when I talk to people about purpose in jobs, they feel guilty about getting paid for it. It’s like, “Oh, and it’s all gotta be purpose.” And I, I, you know, so long as I can put a roof over my head. But I, like, I’m not ashamed. I wanna, I wanna live a good life.
[00:04:07] Abbie Boulter: Um, it’s def- still aspiring to, you know. I, I’m literally just trying to put a roof over my head, an increasingly expensive roof. Um, but yeah, like, this is my job. This is, I need to get a good income from it, but the bonus is 95% of the time I really enjoy it
[00:04:27] Brendon Le Lievre: I agree. I agree. And I’ve been saying to people recently when they feel that guilt Uh, like they have a s- a good set of skills. Makes me sound like Liam Neeson in “Taken.” I need a better in, but like they have skills, they, they make a contribution. They deserve to be financially compensated and recognized for it.
[00:04:52] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:04:52] Brendon Le Lievre: ‘Cause otherwise they… I find they’re like, “Oh, it’s ego-driven and I’m not egotistical, and it’s not about how much I get paid.” I’m like, “No, it’s about recognition.”
[00:05:01] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. But isn’t it that line about, um, I’m not egotistical that you hear so much? So it actually doesn’t matter, I don’t think, what the coaching goal is when people come to me. As soon as you start to scratch the surface a little bit, we land at, “My manager doesn’t recognize me and opportunities pass me by.
[00:05:25] Abbie Boulter: Someone else has got X, Y, and Z.” And when we talk about it, it’s like, “Well, I don’t wanna have an ego, so I’m not gonna be like them and go and tell people that… what I’m good at. I don’t wanna go and sell myself to people.” That’s like, that’s not a bad thing if it’s done in the right way. And you can’t just cross your fingers and hope people are gonna magically see what you want them to see, however good your work is.
[00:05:55] Brendon Le Lievre: えい。
[00:05:58] Abbie Boulter: whether it’s about getting paid well and asking for the money you deserve or the promotion or just talking about what you’re good at so you can do some work you love you have the same thing? Is that
[00:06:12] Brendon Le Lievre: I mean, and it forms a large basis of the book I’ve just written about how people can talk about themselves, ’cause that’s, that’s where I find people get stuck. They’re like, “I’m good at the job. I just show up and I do my job.” And I’m like, “Yeah, that’s not gonna get you, that’s not gonna get you a new job.”
[00:06:29] Abbie Boulter: No. Um, hang on, the book that you’ve written, do you, um, do you share your, obviously without names, but do you share those stories in it? Like, is it a very storytelling book? Because I feel like that’s the only way I can get it to land when I’m talking to people
[00:06:50] Brendon Le Lievre: Yep. So, uh, it’s “The APS Recruitment Game.” It’s on Amazon. It is very practical around frameworks and tools and techniques you can use to talk about yourself. But then in a lot of the chapters, I have, uh, sections which I called Inside the Interview Room, based on my own experience as a chair and a scribe and a panel member, where I tell anonymized stories, uh, and unidentifiable stories of things I saw happen
[00:07:23] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:07:24] Brendon Le Lievre: or experienced myself.
[00:07:25] Brendon Le Lievre: There’s a few stories in there about my own experience in recruitment, like trying to get a job and, and not doing as well as I could. And I agree, I think story is the way. And, and that’s… In order to be good at recruitment, you just have– you become a better storyteller, right? In order to get a job, you just become a better storyteller.
[00:07:46] Brendon Le Lievre: You don’t have to change who you are, you just change how you talk about what you’ve done.
[00:07:49] Abbie Boulter: Yep, absolutely. Um, just let someone else see what it would be like to work with you. Paint a picture. Yep.
[00:07:59] Brendon Le Lievre: Make it easy for them and for you
[00:08:01] Abbie Boulter: completely. Although having said that, I’m quite pleased I’m not out there interviewing anymore, but, um
[00:08:06] Brendon Le Lievre: I agree, I agree. I did say to a few people before I published I should probably go and road test some of this stuff and just go through a couple of recruitment processes and see how it works, but I didn’t do that. Uh,
[00:08:21] Abbie Boulter: We might have to put you to the test on that. Although you might land yourself a, a brand new gig that you accidentally find a new career with.
[00:08:28] Brendon Le Lievre: I might. I might. It’d be awkward if the panel would, not that I think they Google, but Google like, “Oh, he’s written a book about, uh, recruitment. He better be good.” And then you show up and you’re horrible at it. But yeah, it’s just storytelling and, and I think, uh If you, yeah, uh, what did you want to be when you grew up, Brendan?
[00:08:49] Brendon Le Lievre: I don’t know. I had no idea. But yeah, tell stories, talk to people, listen to them, be excited. All of that stuff that you were saying earlier, I– that resonated
[00:08:58] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. Um, we would probably all be as coaches the, um, the person that the teachers are saying, um, “If you could just spend more time focusing and…” And, and it’s sort of j- I reckon I’m a very good… I spend a lot of time silent in my days these days just, just listening. Just listening. But then when you get to go in a room and you’re facilitating as well, that’s where, that’s where that, um, storytelling side comes out, and that’s, that’s my moment to, to do some talking before I then do a whole load of, whole load of listening again.
[00:09:34] Abbie Boulter: But, um, isn’t it funny? You can just spend hours silent, and it’s what’s needed
[00:09:41] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah. Just, just listen. It’s, uh … A- and, and it’s not just listening, but is it?
[00:09:51] Abbie Boulter: Um, I actually met someone this morning, and it was a, um, like a discovery chemistry, do we want to work together? And one question I think is all I asked, and then the tears just started coming. And it’s not the first time . It’s really common. Um, and we weren’t, we weren’t talking about personal stuff. It’s not therapy, but it is just a very senior leader not having to have it all together and actually having someone else there for them.
[00:10:28] Abbie Boulter: And then they’re so apologetic. And it’s like, “Hey, this is exactly what you need to be doing right now.” Um, and I’ve done all my coaching predominantly online, so I don’t do much in-person coaching. Um, but I actually think it’s amazing that you can still have that moment with someone online. Um, and I actually wonder, as I even say it out loud now, I wonder if people feel that they can be even a little bit more vulnerable because they’re in their own space.
[00:11:01] Abbie Boulter: Yes, there’s someone directly in front of them, but maybe they do feel like there’s just that little bit more safety to let it all hang out. Um, I don’t know. Do, do you do in-person mainly or, or mainly virtual coaching?
[00:11:16] Brendon Le Lievre: I’m still mainly virtual. Every now and again people ask for face-to-face specifically and I’ll do, I’ll do it where I can. Um, normally they, they’re like, “Oh, just for one session.” And I’m like, “Well, like, okay.” Like if that’s gonna make a difference for you. It makes no difference for me, uh, as far as I’m concerned, except for the fact that I have to go and find a car park and pay for parking and travel.
[00:11:42] Brendon Le Lievre: Uh, and yeah, that– I think both are good. I don’t think one’s better than the other. They’re just
[00:11:51] Brendon Le Lievre: different.
[00:11:52] Abbie Boulter: yeah
[00:11:53] Brendon Le Lievre: So tears are hard online. It’s hard to pass a tissue, but other than that, be present, be with, and it’s fine. I, I had someone cry when I was doing a coach demo as part of my coach training So there, there were, I don’t know, five or six other coaches in the room and a mentor, coach mentor watching.
[00:12:19] Brendon Le Lievre: They were all cameras off or whatever. And, um, yeah, it was a beautiful coaching session. Like it didn’t matter. Face-to-face, virtual, doesn’t matter, I don’t think.
[00:12:33] Abbie Boulter: No, I don’t think so. And I, I think it works for, works for people to fit it into their, to their daily lives, right? It just actually makes coaching easier.
[00:12:43] Brendon Le Lievre: agreed.
[00:12:44] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:12:45] Brendon Le Lievre: And it has meant that I’ve coached someone on every continent on the planet, which is pretty exciting, right?
[00:12:51] Brendon Le Lievre: That’s kind of fun
[00:12:53] Abbie Boulter: that is great. Um
[00:12:55] Brendon Le Lievre: い。 Uh, Antarctica is pretty cool. Um, oh, literally good pun, Brendan. Um, so yeah, I got to coach someone who was on Antarctica, and they were, uh, like there was a window next to them, and I said to them in one of our sessions, “Is that a window?” They’re like, “Yeah.” ‘Cause you could see the sunlight kind of shining through.
[00:13:21] Brendon Le Lievre: Uh, “Can you get your camera to the window without knocking it?” And they’re like, “Oh, yeah.” And they pick the laptop up and there’s a big iceberg. And that was, that
[00:13:28] Abbie Boulter: Job fair. Let’s go
[00:13:30] Brendon Le Lievre: unreal. Uh, and then what surprised me while I was doing that is, uh, so South America was the hardest one for me to secure.
[00:13:41] Abbie Boulter: E
[00:13:42] Brendon Le Lievre: Um, Australia the easiest, given that that’s where most of my coaching happens.
[00:13:47] Brendon Le Lievre: Um, but what surprised me was broadly very similar challenges,
[00:13:55] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:13:56] Brendon Le Lievre: just different context
[00:13:59] Abbie Boulter: Mmm.
[00:14:01] Brendon Le Lievre: levels of access to stuff. So some things that were really common for me were very rare for them and, and vice versa, which was interesting
[00:14:17] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. Okay. Um, that’s actually really interesting ’cause I’ve just, um, launched an online program in, um, Australia. That’s obviously an easy base. Um, I’m English, it’s my next obvious target, but there is nothing about this program that should be restrained by, by borders. Um, but I am going to be doing a lot of learning as I go, and it’s got like a group coaching component, so I actually get to talk to people in there to understand exactly what you just said.
[00:14:53] Abbie Boulter: It’s like, where am I making assumptions that this sort of knowledge or access to manager conversations is available to you, and where is it not making sense? Where are those moments of friction? And I actually think I can only learn that by people being in there and telling me. So actually, um, yeah, I might have to come and pick your brains as well
[00:15:15] Brendon Le Lievre: What’s your coaching program about? Or your program in, say, coaching specifically, what’s the theme?
[00:15:20] Abbie Boulter: Uh, so it is almost not exactly what I articulated before, which is that how do I actually build my value proposition? How do I talk clearly and confidently about what I love, what I want to do, and in a way that feels comfortable? Um, it’s for people who want to get out and find a new job, absolutely, and then I’ll need to pair it with the book.
[00:15:53] Abbie Boulter: Um, but then it’s also, and this is probably the most common scenario, is my example that I shared, my personal experience, and that I am getting from so many of my clients. I’m in a good role. I’m in a good company. It’s working for my life. I actually feel guilty even questioning it, but I’m not excited, and I’m mid-career, and there’s a whole stretch ahead of me.
[00:16:22] Abbie Boulter: What can I do within this organization to ignite some joy again? back to what we were just talking about before in terms of don’t sit back and wait for someone else to put something in your lap. You actually have to be out there talking to your value and talking to your impact, but you’ve actually got to do the work first.
[00:16:45] Abbie Boulter: Um, it’s not a program I set out to build. Um, I actually didn’t see an online program, and then when I started thinking about one, I actually really wanted to do it in the leadership space. Um, but I couldn’t find time to build the program because I had so many people one-on-one coaching with the same challenge.
[00:17:06] Abbie Boulter: Come on, Abby, listen. Listen to the market. Listen to the feedback. So, um, nine months in the making and, um, I think this Christmas break, I finally, uh, put the final touches on it, and it’s had soft launch beginning of this year and starting to roll out now. So, um, hopefully I can, uh, do it across the, the different countries.
[00:17:31] Abbie Boulter: I, I want Antarctica. Um, but, um, I’m excited about it on a, on a whole number of levels. Um, it’s a new part of my business. Um, and I was talking to someone about this the other day, um, almost feeling guilty for saying
[00:17:54] Abbie Boulter: I can get paid for not being at my desk because that suggests I don’t love being at my desk, suggests I don’t love working one-on-one with people. But actually, I love the thought that I could have an income coming from this different stream. But then there’s loads of other people getting access to this coaching that I know not everyone wants to do one-on-one coaching.
[00:18:20] Abbie Boulter: As much as I hate to say it, it– like just having that commitment of time in your diary, um, can sometimes feel too much for people. Um, and so that’s where I’m hoping this comes together. It’s almost me reigniting my business and my joy and having another part of what I do at the same time that other people are doing the same.
[00:18:41] Abbie Boulter: So in those group coachings, we’re kind of doing that together and having those conversations together, which is pretty fun.
[00:18:48] Brendon Le Lievre: うん。 Nice.
[00:18:52] Abbie Boulter: the year that we start to see that really get some traction.
[00:18:56] Brendon Le Lievre: That’s, that sounds very cool Hmm. And I’m pleased you clocked the parallel ’cause I was like, “This is, this is…”
[00:19:06] Abbie Boulter: Oh, with the book?
[00:19:07] Brendon Le Lievre: I know you and the,
[00:19:08] Abbie Boulter: Oh, me, yeah
[00:19:10] Brendon Le Lievre: like, “Oh, this is happening for Abby, but it’s also happening for them.”
[00:19:14] Abbie Boulter: Totally. And it was actually in a conversation, um, that I actually did it. Like, I hadn’t really got it myself, but it’s not sort of what I set out to do, and then how much I’ve loved building it. Every time a piece lands, I’m like, “Oh, yes, I know this works. I know this is good.” And that’s when I realized what was happening there.
[00:19:34] Abbie Boulter: So yeah, it’s great. And some awesome conversations in the group coaching. I just love it. They’re people from loads of different industries, different backgrounds, but the thing that connects them all is they are brilliant at what they do purely by the fact they’ve chosen to invest in themselves or their organization has chosen to invest in them, and then you watch these phenomenal people just spark off one another.
[00:20:01] Abbie Boulter: And kind of that’s the bit for me to just sit back and let that happen. And then, and then join some threads and some dots. But, um, yeah, I love it. So back to lo- getting to love what you do
[00:20:13] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, that’s cool. There’s a theme to our conversation today
[00:20:18] Abbie Boulter: 100%.
[00:20:19] Brendon Le Lievre: it. Um, hmm. I agree with you, like ’cause I do the mix of coaching and facilitation as well,
[00:20:31] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:20:31] Brendon Le Lievre: and spend a lot of time listening. But, um, I started weaving into my workshops peer coaching to give people an opportunity to have a go at coaching.
[00:20:44] Brendon Le Lievre: And mainly because I don’t have time that from the client’s point of view to do specific coaching skills teaching, even though I think that’s a skill set lots of leaders need. I’m like, “Let’s just have a go at it and have some conversations.” And it’s, it’s really interesting. The first session is a bit of like, “Eh, I don’t know if this is gonna work, and I don’t like that question, and I’m gonna…
[00:21:13] Brendon Le Lievre: You know, I wanna change this or whatever.” And then in subsequent sessions, what I’ve found is people go… I’m like, “Oh, so we’ve, we’re near the end. We’ve– I’ve got a little bit more content, or do you just wanna do your con-” They’re like, “Let’s just do the conversations.” Like, we just wanna hang, and talk, and share, and listen, and experience.
[00:21:32] Brendon Le Lievre: And it’s, it’s almost… It, it is my favorite part of the work, ’cause I just, I sit and kind of observe just to make sure everything is kind of okay. But that kind of energy, and the noise, and the connection, and the stories, and it’s just, it’s so much fun to watch
[00:21:55] Abbie Boulter: And do you, do you feedback in between different coaching conversations over the course of a day? Or how do, how do people sort of get to grapple with it?
[00:22:05] Brendon Le Lievre: With it. So we, I mean, every program’s different. One that I like is at the start of workshops now I do, um, what I call Since We’ve Last Met, and that’s just pair up or get into a group of three and talk about what’s happened since we last hung out. So that might be a week or a month, uh, and I get them to talk about, you know, not necessarily connected to content, but kind of wins or achievements, things they’re proud of, et cetera.
[00:22:34] Abbie Boulter: Yep
[00:22:36] Brendon Le Lievre: And then I’ll popcorn a couple out of the group after we’re done, like share your own, don’t share other people’s, but what’s happened since we last met. And, and it builds kind of this, uh, community in the cohort I find where people are kind of cheerleading for each other, which is lovely.
[00:22:53] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:22:54] Brendon Le Lievre: And then at the end of the day, as a chance to kind of reintegrate everything, we do two slightly longer conversations is, is my And I, I’ll kind of check in in between them, like, “Where did you get stuck?” Or, “What didn’t make sense?” Or, um… But yeah, now they’ve done a couple, they’re like, “We got this.” Um, and I just say to them, uh, “If you get stuck and you don’t know what to ask, just ask and what else?” Like…
[00:23:28] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:23:29] Brendon Le Lievre: And so they, they start asking that, and the, the only challenge with that as a facilitator is you teach them the power of and what else, and then they notice when I use it, and they’re like, “Don’t you stand up there and and what else this like five or six times to find out stuff?”
[00:23:47] Brendon Le Lievre: And I’m like, “No, you have to ignore it when I do it ’cause I know it will work.”
[00:23:51] Abbie Boulter: right. But isn’t that just the simplicity of that? Um, gosh, I remember my first coaching session when I was doing my coaching training, and it was on Zoom. It was peer coaching, like two people learning together. But she was ahead of me, and I was so nervous, and I had a whole list of questions up on the other side of my screen.
[00:24:17] Abbie Boulter: God, if, if there had been a recording of that coaching, or maybe I’m still in contact with her, maybe I should ask how it actually was. She was very generous in the moment. Um, but I was so up in my head around what incredible insight, insight can I come up with or what, what’s the next question that’s gonna move this to somewhere fabulous?
[00:24:43] Abbie Boulter: I actually only think, even though you’re taught that, you’re taught don’t do it, like, here are some great questions. But, um, I think you will only learn by doing, right? Just let it, let it, get out of your own way and just be there
[00:25:02] Brendon Le Lievre: はい。
[00:25:04] Abbie Boulter: still to this day, I’ll prep for a coaching session. I’m like, “Okay, where were we?
[00:25:08] Abbie Boulter: What are we doing? What were our goals?” But even then I, I halve that prep time because I’m like, I don’t know what’s going on in their world between now and last time we caught up. Like nine times out of 10 there’s a, there’s a tangent I didn’t think we were going on. And so it’s quite freeing actually
[00:25:30] Brendon Le Lievre: It’s– Yeah, it is. ‘Cause I used to have a card with a whole bunch of questions on it. It was grow model questions.
[00:25:39] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:25:40] Brendon Le Lievre: And even face-to-face, I’d like, I’d have it s- like in my notebook early days, and I’m like, “Oh, I don’t know what to ask.” It just, it’s like, oh, you know. So if you’re starting there And it works for you, that’s fine.
[00:25:58] Brendon Le Lievre: But I just think it’s quite freeing to put it down and go, “No, I don’t need that. I know how to ask a question.”
[00:26:03] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. I can, I can do conf– I can do questions. I can listen. I can follow someone.
[00:26:09] Brendon Le Lievre: And where does the responsibility sit? That’s the other thing I come back to, ’cause I think early I felt very responsible, like you were saying. It’s my job to get the instance, my job to move the commas, my job to make these… It’s our job
[00:26:23] Abbie Boulter: Mm. So that’s an interesting one. Um, I find that really, really clear when I’ve got a private client paying out of their own pocket. It’s been a big decision to come to coaching, and that is so obviously a shared responsibility. The one I find harder, and I would love to talk this through, is, um, paid for by an organization.
[00:26:52] Abbie Boulter: Like, you got access to coaching, great. Love some personal development. Um- But they arrive into the coaching room expecting me to kick it off and drive them to where they want to go, and we’ll explore that. But I feel the weight of that because then I want you to be getting value, and then I’m, I’m doing all the heavy lifting in terms of where someone wants to get value from it, ’cause they’ve gotta take a bit of lead there, and I actually find that really challenging.
[00:27:30] Abbie Boulter: Um, do you have the similar experience?
[00:27:35] Brendon Le Lievre: Yes. And similar reflections on it as well. It surprises me how often I’ll meet someone for the first session and they’re like, “What do you think I should do with my career?” I’ve known you for five minutes. Uh, I haven’t seen your resume. I don’t know what you’re like at work. I, I don’t know what you enjoy or
[00:27:56] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:27:57] Brendon Le Lievre: what your skill set is. And I’m effectively, at the moment, I’m some rando off the street that like, go and ask 10 people out there what you think you should do with your career. I find, I find that really strange. And Yeah. A lot of people show like, “What’s the structure? What do you wanna t- what, what do you wanna talk about, Brendan?”
[00:28:20] Brendon Le Lievre: And I’m like, “I, I wanna talk about what you wanna talk about.” Like,
[00:28:23] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:28:25] Brendon Le Lievre: so that might be career, it might be strengths identification, it might be, um, life satisfaction in current role, it might be how to have a conver- I don’t, I don’t mind what it is you wanna talk about, but you’ve gotta wanna talk about something ’cause That’s your thing.
[00:28:46] Abbie Boulter: And what I think I see in that, and it’s not always the case, some people just love outsourcing the hard work to someone else, and that is just perfectly healthy.
[00:28:57] Brendon Le Lievre: ええ。 Yeah,
[00:29:02] Abbie Boulter: time they have paused. It is the first time they have taken a moment of silence in the busyness of the day-to-day.
[00:29:11] Abbie Boulter: How’s your day? Busy. Um, and that is the first time they’ve actually slowed down to think about it. And it might actually take a while just to get them comfortable with doing that. Um, and maybe that’s a coaching goal for them. Um, but yeah, it’s amazing how many people are just rushing through the day-to-day.
[00:29:37] Abbie Boulter: Um, I, um… there’s someone I totally admire in this space called Phil Knothworthy, and I- he was sort of a bit of a mentor when I started, and, um, he does a lot of work on this idea of slowing down to speed up. And it is just always sitting there in my mind for me, but in coaching conversations as well. So I think that’s a bit of a responsibility that we have, is helping people do that slowing down.
[00:30:03] Brendon Le Lievre: the paradox
[00:30:05] Abbie Boulter: Yeah.
[00:30:06] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah,
[00:30:07] Abbie Boulter: but once someone experiences, they, it lands. It’s, it’s amazing
[00:30:12] Brendon Le Lievre: え。 Yeah, I really, I had a conversation with my supervisor last week and I, I was watching the clock ’cause I, it’s kind of force of habit. And, and we were talking about, um, a number of different things, but one of the things we touched on was when you’re in one of those coaching sessions and you look at the clock and you go, “Okay, we’re like five minutes in.
[00:30:44] Brendon Le Lievre: Great.” And you go back to the conversation and you’re half an hour later, you go, “I’ll just check the time again,” and you’re 10 minutes into the coaching session. You’re like, “Oh, it’s only been another five minutes. This one’s dragging. What’s going on there?” So I was talking about that, and I noted that in our conversation, only 10 minutes had gone off, like in real time had ticked through, but it felt like forever, but it was a really pleasant, kind of slow, luxurious forever kind of time standstill versus a dragging time standstill.
[00:31:26] Brendon Le Lievre: A- and so we were… It’s just like same kind of outcome, very different experience. And I think, like I say, all too often in coaching, what we’re doing is creating that space for others to experience that and have time kind of slow down around them. And, and the reason I felt the other session was dragging, uh, we got to, was I was doing too much work.
[00:31:53] Brendon Le Lievre: So it felt like work to me because I was doing the work. It’s not my work. I wasn’t coaching. I was trying to solve and fix and
[00:32:01] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:32:04] Brendon Le Lievre: create that insight. I want you to have a big insight, so I’m gonna be only focused on that and miss all the insights that are happening around me because I’m too focused on the insight
[00:32:14] Abbie Boulter: So how do you help them play a different role in those moments? How do you get them there so it does feel like you’re in this together?
[00:32:26] Brendon Le Lievre: Look at you with a good question. Look at you creating
[00:32:29] Abbie Boulter: It’s good, right? And what else,
[00:32:33] Brendon Le Lievre: And what else? And what else? Uh, I have started calling it a bit more.
[00:32:41] Abbie Boulter: Yeah,
[00:32:41] Brendon Le Lievre: saying, “I noticed that…” Yeah. So like, “Something’s different today,” or, um Maybe we need to just check in with the con- like contract. What did you want to get out of the coaching today? Or, or how did you want to approach it? All that sort of stuff.
[00:33:01] Brendon Le Lievre: That’s been helpful. Um, I have started asking people in the middle of my coaching sessions, early ones, um, “How’s the coaching going? And how are we going?” And I s- I’m still quite nervous about asking those two questions.
[00:33:24] Abbie Boulter: We should embrace feedback. We should
[00:33:25] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, we should, but it’s not always easy to do it. Particularly, like you say, when someone else is paying and, and yeah, you’re like, “So tell, how is it go- how’s it going? Are you enjoy- like enjoying this?” And they’re like, “Oh, God, well,” like, I don’t… Yeah. But I think it’s u- it’s useful information at that point ’cause then you can do something with it.
[00:33:45] Brendon Le Lievre: ‘Cause if they’ve shown up going, “I t- I thought you’d have more of a plan,” or, “I thought you’d have more of a structure,” or, “Why haven’t you given me a tool yet?” Or, “I haven’t got a worksheet.” It’s like, well, that’s not what I’m here to do, so. Hmm, what about you? What do you do in those moments?
[00:34:00] Abbie Boulter: I had one today. Um, and it was actually, and she is phenomenal. Um, and she’s just someone whose career has, in her own words, opportunistically all fallen into her lap. But I don’t think it is, and that’s what we’ve, like, she has created that. Um, but she came to coaching ’cause her manager was like, “Why don’t you just go and talk about your career?
[00:34:27] Abbie Boulter: And, you know, just see what else you might wanna do.” So it was that loose, and she was like, “I’m really happy where I am. I know it’s gonna play out, and I’m a bit of a go-getter, which means if it doesn’t, I’ll go and work it out.” I was like, “So what role am I playing for you?” And a bit like you, I just called it.
[00:34:48] Abbie Boulter: So we’d had this one, we had a brilliant session where we sort of really, I got a real handle on how she operated, and it was today in a session, and I came in a little bit, “How am I gonna add value to this phenomenal human?” Um, and I pretty much asked that question. I said, you know, “Where can, what can I bring at this point, mate?
[00:35:08] Abbie Boulter: What, what do you wanna explore?” And she said, “Oh, I just wanna talk it through And I was like, “All right.” She said, “For me to be able to just soundboard everything.” And it wasn’t even a soundboarding, it was just that speaking it out. She said, “I join my own connections, I feel calmer.” I was like, “Brilliant.” And we just had the best session.
[00:35:37] Abbie Boulter: But I needed that check-in ’cause I still hadn’t quite worked out why she was there, but that’s why she was there, ’cause she’s in a senior, senior leadership role and needed someone completely independent just to talk out.
[00:35:52] Brendon Le Lievre: ええ。 う
[00:35:58] Abbie Boulter: you got that, got that little bit of magic where you’re like, “Ah, there’s something there.”
[00:36:04] Abbie Boulter: And then she’s got something really tangible to go and work with. Um, but it was a real reminder for me to give myself permission to check in.
[00:36:12] Brendon Le Lievre: ん。 Okay
[00:36:16] Abbie Boulter: what to do with that one. Um, but yeah, trust in coaching and trust in my experience as a coach.
[00:36:25] Abbie Boulter: We’re, we’re gonna find the value here, and you’re gonna find the value. But what I loved about her was she just called it. She was like, “I just need to take away anyone with an agenda, even if they don’t mean to have an agenda, and explore that.” It was great.
[00:36:44] Brendon Le Lievre: Awesome. That’s fun. The power and the Present listening, it sounds like. It’s not just listening. Mm
[00:36:55] Abbie Boulter: Yeah It’s, uh, it’s good when you get to experience it, and then when you get to help others do it as well
[00:37:04] Brendon Le Lievre: Et
[00:37:06] Abbie Boulter: Just how to be a good listener. It’s actually a superpower
[00:37:12] Brendon Le Lievre: And surprisingly difficult for a whole bunch of reasons.
[00:37:17] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:37:18] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, but I’ve, yeah, I have stopped doing, um, five-hour-long coaching session days. I did a couple of them early in my career and I’m just like, “I’m not doing that anymore,” ’cause this fifth session I’m useless lately.
[00:37:36] Abbie Boulter: Absolutely
[00:37:37] Brendon Le Lievre: I’m cooked ’cause it, it surprises me how much energy it burns
[00:37:42] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. Um, I actually had to let– I, I, with my coaching business, it’s my own business and I have a few partnerships, and I had to wrap up one of the partnerships ’cause there wasn’t really a values alignment, so it made it easier. But it was just busy, noisy days. And I was not in– I was far from being the best coach I could be, and it was really visible.
[00:38:12] Abbie Boulter: Um, it was just getting through it rather than really, really being present, so. And that’s a hard moment, right? When you’re running your own business and it’s like, “I’m going to cut out 25% of my work right now so I can build, but so I can actually do the best job I can.” God, I’m glad I did it
[00:38:36] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah. Difficult decision, um, but an important one. My– When I did my supervisor training, one of the questions that I was asked, ’cause it’s a really good program, you are required to supervise people through the, the training.
[00:38:58] Abbie Boulter: Yeah, nice
[00:38:59] Brendon Le Lievre: to go and find them, which is a challenge. Um, but luckily, I had some people that trusted me to work with me through that.
[00:39:07] Brendon Le Lievre: And, um Then what, um, I said was, “I’d like more. I’m, I’m looking for more, um, supervision.” And they said, “What are you gonna let go of to create space for that to happen?” And I think all too often it’s like, “I’ve gotta hold onto it until something new comes.” It’s like, no, maybe you need to let go of something that’s not working for you, even though that’s a scary decision
[00:39:39] Abbie Boulter: Yep
[00:39:40] Brendon Le Lievre: to create the space for new to appear.
[00:39:42] Brendon Le Lievre: It’s interesting
[00:39:44] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. It’s
[00:39:45] Brendon Le Lievre: way that works
[00:39:46] Abbie Boulter: really hard to do, but it just can’t be perfectly linear or sequential. Um, and that’s the only reason I managed to get the online program, get Reclaim out there,
[00:39:57] Brendon Le Lievre: Oui
[00:39:59] Abbie Boulter: I had to create that space, and I had to feel a bit of pressure to make it work. And there’s no denying that, but there’s no way I’d have been able to actually have given it the time it needed otherwise
[00:40:10] Brendon Le Lievre: Mm-hmm. Nice. If people want to sign up for this program, how do they sign up? How does it work, Abby?
[00:40:16] Abbie Boulter: Um, so it’s not on a cohort basis. You can sign up anytime, which is where I think it makes it really easy. So, um, entry is through my own website, abbybolter.com, um, and it’s up there as the online program, and so it’s lifelong access. So this is what I love, especially when companies are investing, and you’re at this time of year, the phone’s going and people are like, “Oh, professional development budget,” and it’s gonna, it’s gonna run out.
[00:40:45] Abbie Boulter: They get to get that, and they get to come back to it at any point. So, um, easy sign up, sign up online, take it at your own pace, ’cause life’s busy enough not to. Um, and it’s something that some people plug into their ears and listen to and just let the ideas noodle around in their mind. Other people are sitting there with the video and the workbook and the pen.
[00:41:10] Abbie Boulter: Um, so it’s a bit of a choose your own adventure. In there, it works both ways. And then there’s group coaching as well, but it’s optional because I’ve done them before where you miss a group coaching session because of other schedules, and then you feel like you fall behind, and I just don’t wanna add extra pressure to people who are coming to the program because they’re already feeling the pressure at that point.
[00:41:35] Abbie Boulter: Um, so it’s drop-in, which is really nice because then everyone on the coaching is ready to talk, ready to share, and it’s this really generous community because it’s, “Well, ah, you feel that? I feel that. You’ve just worked on your value proposition. Tell me about it.” Um, and so yeah, it’s really nice. So it’s easy sign up.
[00:41:55] Abbie Boulter: That’s all I wanted it to be. The, everything that runs through it is this idea of ease,
[00:42:01] Brendon Le Lievre: ええ。
[00:42:02] Abbie Boulter: the year this year, ease
[00:42:05] Brendon Le Lievre: 嗯。 Mmm
[00:42:11] Abbie Boulter: So ease doesn’t mean not busy. Ease doesn’t mean not hard work. Ease is taking out unnecessary friction or unnecessary noise. Um, you know,
[00:42:27] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah. Last year
[00:42:28] Abbie Boulter: business
[00:42:29] Brendon Le Lievre: I did unbusy was my focus.
[00:42:33] Abbie Boulter: Nice. What does that look like?
[00:42:39] Brendon Le Lievre: so it do things. It is, uh, have a good mix of stuff on. It, it’s do things that have impact ultimately, uh, because it… So the, yeah, um, a, a bit like you said earlier, you said that like one of my kind of words that trigger me are the busy word is just how often it shows up in conversation.
[00:43:04] Abbie Boulter: Yeah
[00:43:05] Brendon Le Lievre: Like: “How are you? Are you busy? Are you busy? I hope you’re busy. I can’t wait to get back to work and be busy.” I’m like, “Ugh.” And, and my kind of reframe on that is I’ve got young kids. They’re 10 and seven. Their friends show up quite regularly. It’s kind of fun to ask them what they wanna be when they grow up.
[00:43:21] Brendon Le Lievre: Not one of them has said busy yet. Uh, and so as adults, why do we, why do we do
[00:43:28] Abbie Boulter: of honor.
[00:43:29] Brendon Le Lievre: Like it is,
[00:43:30] Abbie Boulter: seem to hold
[00:43:31] Brendon Le Lievre: to put down. So yeah, ease makes… I like it. That’s good.
[00:43:35] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. Um, I will kick myself if my answer to is, “How was your weekend?” Or, “How was your week?” Busy. But it is always the first word on the tip of my tongue. I’m like, “No, you can do more with this.” ‘Cause it’s a given, right? It’s given that there’s lots on. Got, got kids, years eight and five, got a business, got friends.
[00:44:04] Brendon Le Lievre: Yep.
[00:44:05] Abbie Boulter: You know, there’s stuff on,
[00:44:06] Brendon Le Lievre: I agree. But, uh, yeah, so I, I really struggle with that word, and I spent all of last year trying to not use it, and it’s hard to, and yeah. And I know, so if I start telling people that I’m busy, what that means for me is my schedule is driving me, I’m not driving it, and that means that my balance is out
[00:44:32] Abbie Boulter: Yeah. The way I describe it to someone, um, the other day when we were talking on this exact topic, for me, if I say busy, it is that the noise has taken over, and I am just in reactive mode, and I hear myself actually with the kids more than anything. Meep, meep, meep, meep, meep, meep, and it’s just that like next, next, next, next.
[00:44:57] Abbie Boulter: And then I realize I’m doing that with work. So that, that is my warning, and I, I can probably feel it in my body before I actually even get to, get to that thought. Um, I know what it looks like. They know what it hears, what it sounds like. And they’ll give me feedback.
[00:45:14] Brendon Le Lievre: Tom’s busy again.
[00:45:15] Abbie Boulter: “Mom’s busy.” Makes us very busy. They’re
[00:45:22] Brendon Le Lievre: Thanks for hanging out.
[00:45:23] Abbie Boulter: feedback though, aren’t they?
[00:45:25] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, no, the kids like to let you know how you’re tracking. Uh, that’s definitely true. Thanks for hanging out. Let’s, let’s do our questions to close out. So just kind of short and punchy. Uh, I inevitably want a deeper dive on all of these, but I don’t. I’ll just move to the next question so, uh, we get through this ’cause otherwise there’s a whole other episode in it, no doubt, another conversation in it.
[00:45:50] Brendon Le Lievre: But yeah, the first one, Abby, is what fulfills you?
[00:45:55] Abbie Boulter: First thing that comes to my mind is being there with my family and having adventures
[00:46:00] Brendon Le Lievre: And what frustrates you
[00:46:05] Abbie Boulter: People who don’t put the effort in to make things a little bit better
[00:46:12] Brendon Le Lievre: And if you could recommend one book that everyone should read besides the APS Recruitment Game, what would it
[00:46:20] Abbie Boulter: Uh, the one I’m always recommending, and it’s a classic, but is Radical Candor by Kim Scott
[00:46:28] Brendon Le Lievre: What do you admire most in those you work with?
[00:46:37] Abbie Boulter: People that I work with, back to what frustrates me, it’s the opposite of that, are ready to just take life and do something with it, no matter how big or small that might be, but they’re questioning that, “Is this it? And can I have more fun with this?” And I love it
[00:47:00] Brendon Le Lievre: What’s your favorite question?
[00:47:02] Abbie Boulter: What else?
[00:47:03] Brendon Le Lievre: What else? Such a
[00:47:05] Abbie Boulter: What else?
[00:47:06] Brendon Le Lievre: Such a good question. Uh, if you weren’t a coach, what would you be?
[00:47:14] Abbie Boulter: Kadeeyay Either a physiotherapist or a mi-, or still a coach, or like a… I wanna work with professional athletes. So I either wanna help their bodies or help their minds to get them out on the field and in their team and be awesome
[00:47:37] Brendon Le Lievre: And the final one is, if you could say anything to your younger self, what would you say to them?
[00:47:48] Abbie Boulter: Let go of the guilt
[00:47:52] Abbie Boulter: I think that’s been a, um, an ongoing pattern, espec- especially for someone who has moved countries and left family behind. And, um, I think guilt holds so much back. So I, I’d say let go of the guilt. Work in progress
[00:48:14] Brendon Le Lievre: Thank you so much. That was beautiful.
[00:48:17] Abbie Boulter: Thank you. Oh, loved hanging out. I wanna ask you your seven questions.
[00:48:23] Brendon Le Lievre: Uh, that’s why I host and don’t let
[00:48:25] Abbie Boulter: I know. Thanks, Brendan
[00:48:29] Brendon Le Lievre: Thank you