Swagata Bapat joins Brendon Le Lievre to discuss the importance of listening, drawing on previous experience as you build your coaching skill, finding time for quiet in our busy days and reframing how we think about our differences into being our super powers.
You can find out more about her by connecting with her:
On LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/swagata-bapat-coach/
On her website – www.sbconsulting.com.au /
Email – swagata@sbconsulting.com.au
Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon: Hello, and welcome to the coach conversations podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things, coaching I’m Brendon Le Lievre, and today I’m joined by Swagata Bapat. Welcome. Pleased to have you along.
[00:00:16] Swagata: Yes. I’m excited to be here as well.
[00:00:18] Brendon: Good, good. That’s what we want to hear. How did you find coaching?
[00:00:25] Swagata: Yeah, it’s an interesting story I guess I originally trained as a mental health occupational therapist, and I’ve worked clinically with people with mental health issues. And I worked for a good 10 or 12 years as a clinician, and then moved into kind of more still in that sector into more service development consulting around developing services and I guess without knowing it at the time, building some of my coaching skills in the way that I’d taught to people who are developing services, you know, asking what would success look like, or what would this service be providing if it was doing good job, those sorts of questions, but it wasn’t until I got into, uh, an exec leadership role and it was a massive leap for me, it was a big national role.
And about two months into the role, I was saying to my manager, I’m needing to get some support around, um, how I’m doing this role. And she connected me with this incredible coach who knew the organization really well. And for me, I’d always done clinical supervision, which is a very different or mentoring, which is a very different process and it was like a revelation to have this person, um, kind of help me come to where I needed to get to and use all my own resources, rather than telling me as someone more experienced how to do it. Uh, so that was the first thing that kind of set the seed for me. And then I moved into another organization where, uh, there was also some great coaching happening and I was the recipient of some of that.
And it felt like a natural progression from there when I decided to, so almost five years ago now I started working for myself and, uh, I was really keen to and I was being approached about whether I could support other people. And I really love the coaching model. So that was the start of my journey. Then I went and did more training and, um, yeah, so that, that’s the, um, not a short answer, but the kind of journey to how I got to coaching.
[00:02:35] Brendon: Yeah, I love that. That client question of if the service was working well, what would it be doing? Or how, what does success look like for this? And I, I smile because a friend of mine, uh, asked that question when he was going for a piece of work and the client paused and went, oh, we haven’t really thought about that.
And they had a quick conversation and then they went, oh, actually, now that we’ve worked out what that is. We don’t, we don’t need you getting far out of a piece of work by asking you a really good question. And I say, you should have invoiced for that still
[00:03:11] Swagata: that’s gold right there. But actually that’s really interesting because with the consulting work, I do, uh, again, those coaching questions are incredibly helpful because they really narrow down the brief of what people really want.
And often people will reach out and say we want this, what the end result or the product is. And when you can coach them through it a bit more, you get much more clarity around what they’re actually wanting or what the actual kind of pain point or problem is that they’re trying to address. So, yeah, I’m hoping I don’t do myself out of any work though.
Like your friend
[00:03:46] Brendon: it’ll come back. I’m sure. Remember he asked that question. What are you drawing from your you know therapy, mental health background into your coaching. How do you see those two things supporting each?
[00:04:03] Swagata: Yeah, look, I think, um, I, at a very basic level, those deep listening skills, I think, uh, you know, I’ve been working in the mental health kind of space for 30 years now.
And I think those listening skills become really finely honed. And so, um, I don’t like to say I’m drawing on my gut necessarily, but I think it is. I think it’s my gut. That’s developed from lots of experience of listening and noticing. What’s not being said, uh, being able to piece together dynamics and themes that might keep reoccurring over a range of coaching sessions. Um, but there’s lots of techniques that I’ve used with clients. So, you know, for example, mindfulness and grounding, lots of those, uh, techniques, uh, the sort of questions that you can ask, uh, there’s some really similar ones. Um, Becoming really aware of limiting self-beliefs. So a lot of the CBT cognitive behavioral therapy frameworks, and lend themselves really beautifully to coaching.
And I noticed in the level two training, actually, there was a lot of those sort of questions were being brought in and demonstrated by the facilitators. So I guess a lot of that, um, therapeutic thinking it really helps. And you can, I can draw on it quickly without having to think too much about it.
That’s sort of where my natural go-to is. Uh, which was why when I first did the training I was like, oh no, because they had that very prescribed model. They can’t use a lot of my actual skills around questioning and, um, CBT frameworks or mindfulness.
So that they’re the sort of, uh, clinical, mental health skills that I bring to the coaching.
[00:05:55] Brendon: I find when people are exposed to coach training, that first time that’s the really hard bit is just kind of leaving your experience to date at the door, learn this as a way forward, and then you can bring it all back in.
But that’s because we’re often not as good at asking the questions as we think we are. You know, oh, I’m great at asking all these open questions and I know how to ask open questions, then you get people asking them and you’re like, that’s closed, that’s closed. that was leading.
[00:06:30] Swagata: Well worse. One of the things that I used to get tripped up into, cause I’d often get a lot of, uh, kind of people who, uh, OTs, but earlier on in their career and I’d kind of start off coaching and then fall into the trap of saying, right, I’m just going to take my coaching hat off now. But what I need to tell you is, so for me, that discipline in level one was really, really helpful to just really hold that boundary around they’ve got the gold, you don’t have to tell them everything, you know, and you know, that was difficult, but really helpful.
[00:07:02] Brendon: And do you combine your therapy with your coaching? And I asked that, and I know that’s not a great question because it’s closed in leading, but this isn’t coaching. So that’s fine. I asked that because I did a, uh, like a phone call, client exploration meet and great, whatever the right word is last week. And someone asked me directly, um, do you have experience working in the mental health space or with people that need mental health?
And I obviously don’t. So I said, you know, I think. You know, um, coaching can be quite therapeutic, but it’s not therapy. And if you need to access someone who has therapy, training and skills, you definitely should, and it’s not an either or choice, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that answer, you know, works.
But I’m interested for someone who has that, that skill set as well. Do you keep them separate or do you bring both?
[00:07:53] Swagata: Yeah, well, firstly, I really liked that answer a very similar to what I would say. Uh, I don’t combine the two. I think they’re two very different, uh, prospects for people. And so. When people will come to me for coaching, I’m really clear that there’s a boundary around what’s coaching.
And, and I will suggest to people that they might want to go and pursue some, um, counseling or therapy, if that’s the thing that starts kind of really showing up in the coaching sessions. And, um, I think people can do both. And so I have coached a few people who, um, I’m holding the coaching space. And I’m also very aware that they’re seeing a therapist as well.
And so that they might bring that into the conversation. And I’ll say, I’m noticing this theme and they’ll say, oh yeah, that’s something that my therapist and I working on. And that’s kind of then sitting there in that boundary. Um, but it is, I think really important to delineate between the two. Because, uh, in that kind of coaching paradigm, your you’re not offering that sort of clinical support.
It’s a different power base. I think when you’re working in a therapeutic relationship, there are some, you know, some similarities as well, but I always very clearly delineate at the start of a coaching engagement. Uh, and I’ve never yet got to the point where I’ve had to say to someone, I think actually coaching is not what you need you just need counseling, but I’ll often suggest that that’s an additional thing. The other thing that I think is really interesting about this as I’ve done, um, because of my clinical background, I have been engaged to coach people with lived experience of mental health issues. And that’s a space that I absolutely love because you’re working with, you know, these incredibly bright fantastic people who are also bringing their lived experience to the work that they’re doing. So they’re often in designated roles or they’re adding their perspective to the work. Uh, and again, in that situation, it’s really important to be able to tease out when you’re coaching and when you’re actually saying, actually this needs to now move into the therapy space, and that’s not what I’m engaged to do with you.
[00:10:13] Brendon: Yeah. I’m surprised at how often people say, oh, that was really therapeutic. And I think it’s just cause, cause I’ve started to ask people, well, what made it therapeutic? Because I’m intrigued. And they say, oh, I think knowing that you’re independent, it’s confidential and you weren’t going to try and fix it because I’m surrounded by people that are, you know, I’ll get halfway through a bit of a vent or getting something off my chest and they try and solve it.
And you just sit there and listen. Let me go. And quite often they sort of self identify and they go, okay, that’s enough about that now I’ve, I’ve sort of got that out and it’s processed and we can move on to something else. But.
[00:10:58] Swagata: Yes. I think that’s one of the real gifts of coaching and of therapy is particularly in the last couple of years.
Like we are so fraught with a hundred things to do. I’m thinking about my morning, this morning, you know, I had to RAT tests, both my kids make two separate lunches because one of them won’t eat particular things and then, you know, get them off to school and get back and make sure that I’ve got everything set up.
So people are just really, incredibly busy. And there’s just his real gift in having an hour where it’s just your space to stop slow down, reflect. And I think both coaching and therapy can offer that, um, that space. I did have a, uh, an executive client actually, who I was coaching in the whole organization.
And there was a group that I was coaching and then individually as well. And he was just hysterical, gave us, he was a real op like doer. And so he’s struggled with the stopping and, and then he used at the end of it all say, oh, all right, well, I’ll get up off the couch now. And I’ve gone send me the bill, but it was something quite unusual for him to actually have time to stop and reflect on himself rather than on the work.
So, yeah.
[00:12:20] Brendon: I find that people are more efficient as a result where they, they invest that hour, where they pause and they stop. It’s true for me as well when I work with a coach. And then, because the thinking is done, the doing’s more efficient as opposed to just doing the doing and jumping off from the next thing to the next thing to the next thing.
So it’s always interesting when. One of the, yeah, but when are we going to get to the doing or I want to make stuff happen. It’s like that will, that will come, but we just need to pause and stop first. And I suppose finding little moments for ourselves or at an individual level, we can make that happen.
[00:13:02] Swagata: Yes, I think that’s the, I mean, interestingly, that’s one of the things that I’ve really noticed about coaching is that people often come saying, you know, I’m really struggling with, uh, you know, whatever the content area is. And there seems to be a theme. And I don’t know whether this is just about the way that I coach. So it’d be interesting to hear what your experiences are as well.
Uh, is that the things that have the most impact for people are really about, you know, taking time out mindfulness, grounding. A range of sort of techniques that help them slow down and reflect and be much more intentional about the way that they do, rather than just busy, busy, but, you know, people often come saying, you know, I want to get better at content content content, and that’s not actually the issue.
[00:13:55] Brendon: Yeah. That’s probably similar, but somewhat different at times in my coaching as well. I have this line, that’s in my coaching bio. That I put in there and it’s true and it’s real and it’s authentic, but it was kind of, uh, I’ve got to put something in here so what should I put in here? And the line, the line is that, you know, I enjoy working with people who feel stuck and I get so many phone calls from people saying “oh, that that line really stood out for me. I’d really like to, you know, to be unstuck”, which is a great place to start for coaching, but it’s interesting what, what grabs people and part of the becoming unstuck is the stopping, the pausing, the reframing, the thinking about where you want to be, as opposed to just getting stuck in the, in the doing. And so, you know, finding little ways for people to have that, that pause and that think time and to do it and role model it myself. So, you know, this morning you mentioned your morning, mine was kind of similar, you know, um, helped get my boys ready for school slash daycare.
And then I walked my oldest to primary school. He wanted to ride his bike. He was super excited about that. So he walked down, he rode down and then I wheeled it home. Um, and then I have this meeting in my calendar that I try. I try very, very hard to stick to, which is just for half an hour. And it’s called plan the week that’s all it says in it. And all I do during the. Half an hour is check that people have accepted meeting invites. You know, the zoom links, if, if there’s zoom links or WebEx links or whatever have been sent, that material is ready for workshops that I’m going to run, you know, that people have completed, um, surveys or instruments that were, I’m going to need to debrief them on during the week.
All that sort of stuff and I’ll put travel time in my calendar, if I’m going to be doing a face-to-face thing
[00:16:11] Swagata: face to face,
[00:16:13] Brendon: Which is rare at the moment. But when I first started doing that, I thought, oh, well, isn’t that extravagant? Brendon needs half an hour to plan his waking to get his ducks in order.
And yet if I don’t do that, if I don’t take that time to really think through my week and work out where stuff is. I easily waste three, four times that amount of by being in the wrong spot or not having links or waiting for people to show up for coaching sessions and they haven’t confirmed it. And so I sit and hold really strongly to that because the desire is let’s get into the email, the social media, the website update that’s overdue, that sort of stuff.
Um, And then the, you know, I’ll just, all the rest will fall into place and it just doesn’t every time it trips me up. So yeah. Finding time to do that mindfulness and that prep stuff. It pays dividends.
[00:17:18] Swagata: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think for me, uh, Sunday nights, um, uh, my, uh, look ahead to the week, but the, the grounding and mindful thing for me is every morning I go and spend 15 minutes minimum, and it often is longer, but 15 minutes just in the garden, I’m a really passionate gardener.
And I’ve got a very large garden, uh, and I’ll walk through the garden with my cup of tea and my girls know not to try and come and talk to me for that time. That’s just, mummy’s going out and having a cup of tea and it really helps me cause I find that it’s that focus that you get when you really just focusing on something else.
And while I’m doing it in the back of my mind, all the cogs are kind of turning and there’s this little, oh you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to do that. That just happens naturally. Sets me up for the day. And I find when I miss that, so pre COVID when I used to do a lot of traveling, I would find that it was much harder to, to be on top of things in the way that you’re talking about, where you get your half an hour to really plan.
And yeah, I think those, those moments that really what makes such a big difference to people that I coach as well. So one of my clients a couple of weeks ago was saying to me, oh, I’m going really great I’m just, I’m feeling really buoyant and I just feel like I can take on anything that’s um, that’s coming my way.
For them one of the big things that, that implemented across their week was exactly what you’re identifying was, but very specific times that they stayed disciplined to where they were doing some grounding and moving and trying to get out of their head and into their body a bit more and seems to, you know, I’m not surprised, but it had a really big impact for them.
[00:19:09] Brendon: The gardens sounds like a great place to kick that off. We’ve just had landscapers come through and fix our backyard up from, um, the white pebble Oasis that it was.
And so there’s some grass out there, there’s some garden beds out there that are waiting to be planted. And it’s, it’s amazing how much of a difference it makes. Just looking at the window as you washing the dishes or getting from the morning. Oh look at that. Like, that’s, that’s really nice. So I’m sure more people are noticing that, you know, during work from home or greater opportunity to be at home, around taking advantage of those spaces that we may have have overlooked or not really appreciated.
[00:19:59] Swagata: Yeah, absolutely. I think particularly for Melbourne people that became incredibly important in those kind of two long years of almost constant lockdown. Uh, but I think there’s also again, for me as a mental health, someone who’s very interested in the research around mental health.
There’s so much research around the impact of engaging with nature and gardening, being one of those ways to do it, on your mental health and wellbeing. So I feel like that’s just, it’s a no brainer really led to spend time amongst nature can really give you a sense of perspective and that’s really what coaching’s about isn’t it? Having, getting lots of different perspectives and being able to draw on them. So,
[00:20:46] Brendon: yeah. Did you find that your Melbourne based counterparts had a reaction to having access to the garden or to different areas as much as they did during lockdown, as opposed to, you know, being in the office?
[00:21:03] Swagata: I’ve heard lots of different things. So I think some people, I mean, for me, this pandemic’s been really incredible in the way that it’s shone a really big light on who has and who hasn’t. So, um, and I’ll explain what I mean by that. What I noticed was I was coaching people in lots of different circumstances from, you know, single parents living in tiny apartments with toddlers and then childcare closing down. So then unable to work from home and to people with lovely houses and beautiful gardens who were able to, you know, as much as possible, really enjoy that enforced time to just be with themselves and with their house and their garden.
But yeah, I mean, um, people really talked a lot about being able to get out into the green spaces and how important that was for them. Uh, but I, I really did notice that there were some people that did incredibly well. Uh, during the lockdowns and some people who just really were challenged, I mean, uh, one of the young women, I was coaching had to end up resigning from her role because she just wasn’t able to maintain working from home with a child that wasn’t in childcare.
And so, um, that was a real eye-opener for me. Like I’ve always been very aware of what I have, but there’s nothing like a pandemic to make you feel incredibly grateful for what’s around you and yeah. Yeah. So I’m not sure if I really answered what you were asking, but, uh, you know, I do think that there was those kind of two elements of some people doing well and some people not managing that well, But, uh, across the board that a lot of groups developed on Facebook, you know, that we’re to try and support each other in the online space. And there was a lot of, uh, we’ve gone out to this walk. And so you’d see a lot more people around the neighborhood got to know your community a lot better because people, you know, couldn’t travel as much, we were on a 5k limit for quite a period of time. So yeah. The other thing I did notice though, was, um, just how many of my previous clients were ringing and asking for additional input around how to support the mental health and wellbeing of their client, of their workforce. So, uh, particularly the workforce that was delivering services and, uh, that was really interesting.
And the shift for uh, boards in terms of priorities. So I was doing a piece of work at one point with, uh, a small organization where the board was asking me to look at workforce capability, which is one of the areas that I, um, consult in and then lock down here and the chair rang up and said, oh, we might put that piece of work on hold, but we really need you to help us work out how to get everyone into a, working from home, kind of connected working from home situations.
So. Yeah. I think the impact on mental health and wellbeing has been talked about a lot, but I’ve really noticed that
[00:24:17] Brendon: Yeah, we had the, a lot of our neighbors do the, um, put a Teddy bear in the window. The kids loved that. They’d then we’d go for a walk around the block and sort of they’d remember which bear was where and want to go and wave to it?
And so that was kind of cool. We’ve got Batman in our tree still every now and again, people, people notice that Batman’s there. Uh, so that’s interesting. And I think, you know, what I, what I noticed a lot of was recognition, I think of what you say with regards to, you know, different levels of privilege.
And I kind of think that is a new thing that has appeared, you know, having access to high speed internet that you don’t have to share with housemates or, or others. And the ability to, to navigate working from home, you know, access to the quiet space or quieter spaces that some of us do. Um, and also people feeling really guilty about it what they’re doing while they working from home. So people would say, oh, I just unpacked the dishwasher before I got onto the call with you. And now I feel really guilty about that. I’m going to have to add to the end of my day, because if that’s not working or I went for a walk in the garden or I’ve made a cup of tea and
[00:25:40] Swagata: My goodness that’s interesting,
[00:25:43] Brendon: I found it really strange because then I’d say to them, well, if you were you know, in the office and you went to the cafe and bumped into someone and you spoke to them for 15 minutes, would you consider that to not be work? That’s work. That’s fine. Why, why is it different when we’re in this different location? Um, why do we think about it in a different way?
And should we be, so let’s just check in with those assumptions and those, those biases that we have that unpacking the dishwasher because again, unpack the dishwasher in the office,
You’re that great
[00:26:22] Swagata: team members.
[00:26:24] Brendon: I mean, I know that it’s your dishwasher and it’s your plates and your cups and what have you, not the work areas, but I don’t kno I kind of think. Let’s worry less about that. And more to that stuff you were worrying about, are people looking after their mental health and wellbeing, are they supported? Are they. Yeah. Able to get the work they need to get done, done and do we have a culture where people could put their hand up and say, no, I need a hand here, can someone help me out.
[00:26:52] Swagata: Yeah. And I, um, have to say that was one of the things that I, that was just fantastic about the last couple of years as I’ve been really, I’m just struck by how incredibly caring and supportive the, uh, leadership in the organizations I’ve worked with have been there. There’s just been, it’s been really lovely to see this kind of almost a pause and our workforce is incredibly important. How’s the best way that we can support them and really, um, pulling out all stops to do whatever they thought that they could in that situation to, to help and support. So, um, that’s actually been one of the really great things. I think that the two great things that have come out for me is the focus on mental health and wellbeing.
Uh, and re-imagining that conversation that you’ve kind of alluded to around what is work and how can work be set up. So even conversations with organizations that may never have considered having people continue to work from home now saying, well, you know, they’re still productive. It seems to work, we’re not losing three hours of commuting time where yeah. So that’s yeah. That’s, I think that’s fantastic.
[00:28:11] Brendon: And it just blows open the talent pool as well right. I know, you know, being in Canberra, fairly heavy public service presence here, which won’t come as a surprise to anyone, but there used to be this really strong focus on you know, if you want to be at a certain level, then you kind of need to be in Canberra, which I think is completely wrong. It’s just an absolute falsehood. But if we were to allow people to work remotely, now, all of a sudden whichever industry organization we are in, and we have access to talent from everywhere, and I’ve seen a lot more rural and remote located people coming to workshops or coming to coaching.
[00:28:54] Swagata: Yes.
[00:28:55] Brendon: Getting access to that stuff because you just send them a link or they send you a link and you click the button and you and you’re there as opposed to, oh, I don’t get that because I’m in insert small country town.
[00:29:06] Swagata: Yeah, absolutely. I think the access issue has been extraordinary and I’ve, um, you know, I’ve got one client that’s in the UK and I find it really interesting that I probably wouldn’t have, uh, thought about working with someone in the UK before pre pandemic. Even though it was always possible, but yeah, it’s blown up in that kind of ability to access, uh, people all over the world really.
[00:29:35] Brendon: Yeah. Which links to just, cause it’s come up, I’m going to talk about it out loud. First time ever on this, I set myself a goal in 2021, which I didn’t even make any progress towards, so it’s this years goal now as well of trying to coach someone who’s physically located on every continent on the planet.
[00:29:54] Swagata: Oh my goodness. What a goal.
[00:29:57] Brendon: Which I’m pretty excited about. So Australia is locked and loaded. That’s that? Um, but yeah, and I’ve, I’ve coached someone who’s, you know, in the Asian continent and so that’s pretty cool, but yeah, the one that’s difficult is Antarctica.
I don’t know how I get someone there, but because it’s all virtual, you know, maybe I’ll just get someone to set their background and tell me they’re there, but, you know, so if you’re on, ain’t talk to caring, you’re listening and you looking for some coaching. Um, but yeah, I just think it would be cool to be able to say that that I’d done that.
So that’s what I’m. Putting my feelers out about that thing.
[00:30:38] Swagata: So what have you ticked off already Brendon?
[00:30:41] Brendon: So, so last year, uh, I got Australia, Africa, Europe, and Asia, not the Americas. So it didn’t quite crack them. And so, so far this year, it’s just Australia and Asia.
[00:31:00] Swagata: Uh, what’s the rules of your game. Can you have the ones that you did last year roll over to this year? So you’ve just got to, or do you start from scratch?
[00:31:10] Brendon: I hadn’t thought about it, but I think I will start from, start from scratch because I’m intrigued to see if it, if it can be done. And there was a nice alignment in 2021 because you know. I thought I’d coach everyone three times and this seven continents. And so it was, you know, probably should have published or publicized rather a little more about it, and then it would have happened, but you know, there were other priorities. So, um,
[00:31:39] Swagata: oh, well I can have to catch up again so I can hear how you went.
[00:31:43] Brendon: Yeah. So I’m like, I’m just sitting those little strange little goals for myself just to see where they come from. I’m fascinated by how often they sort of play out or, or come true. You know one I did a few years ago when we had more. Um, ability to make face to face. I was in the ICF, uh, ACT leadership team. And, um, we run an event in the leadership team called coach catch-up and coach catch-up is on the second Tuesday of every month and it’s free for anyone that wants to show up that’s interested in coaching and wants to hang out with coaches can come along. And I set myself this goal of getting 50 new or longtime absent faces to come along to that event. And when I started talking about it, people were like, well, that that’s a crazy goal. Why would you set yourself that? But in December on the last, um, one of the year the 50th person showed up, which is,
[00:32:48] Swagata: Ah, so good. There is, I think there’s something, uh, really interesting about how, when you’re again, and this kind of comes back to the, what happens in coaching and the process is when you’re really clear in your set intentions.
Um, somehow. You, I think it comes to you, the energy that you put out, you start, I guess you start paying more attention, selective attention to opportunities that fit with that. And I think your energy and your drive goes into that direction and more often than not. Yeah. You can achieve those goals, however, whether they’re odd or not. Yeah. That’s all that’s happened for me with even this podcast. I set myself a stretch challenge to do some podcasts and a bit more kind of, um, conversations with people for 2022. And they’re just coming. So I’ve, you know, I’m going to be doing two more after this, and I think that there’s something about once it’s in your head and you’re kind of listening out for it, some just kind of naturally filter to you.
Uh, yeah, so my goal was not about subcontinents and continents. My goal was to do 12 this year.
[00:34:14] Brendon: Pleased to hear that. That’s great. That is a rolling your way. Cause it’s funny how you put your attention into stuff and get clear on what it is as you say. And then it just starts, it’s almost seems to start to happen. Obviously there’s still some effort and some drive behind it, but know, I find you, you talk about that stuff more as well.
[00:34:35] Swagata: Yes, absolutely. And you know, I, uh, you can either go make sense of it in that kind of, woo woo way of going and, you know, the, the energy and the world comes to you or, um, uh, prefer to think of it as, uh, your attention is actually then, uh, more on those opportunities and you tend to hear more of them and see more of them and talk more about them.
[00:35:00] Brendon: So wonderful. So what have you got the podcasts this year, what else is on the plans for your this year?
[00:35:07] Swagata: So I’m, I’ve still got a number of people that I am coaching. So I’m really loving the coaching. And I feel like it’s, um, one of the things that gives me incredible sense of joy to, uh, watch people become really clear about, uh, what they want from life. So I’ll continue to do that. I do, uh, quite a bit of facilitation as well so I’ve got some really interesting pieces of facilitation work lined up, which, and I think those two lend themselves to each other. You use your coaching skills a lot in facilitation. So I’m going to be facilitating some, uh, work around a community of practice and facilitating a couple of kind of team workshops, leadership development days. And, um, one of the things I love about consulting, there’s a couple of other things that I’m going to be putting a tender in for at the moment, but is that I couldn’t tell you. And that’s exciting. And I’m someone who, uh, thrives on lots of new ideas and trying out new things, new experiences. I think it keeps you kind of energized and alive and, um, You know, helps you stay a little bit flexible in the way that you do your life and your work. So I don’t know, I’ve got up until the kind of middle of March sorted, and then who knows what’s going to come it will be, it’s just going to be exciting to say,
[00:36:40] Brendon: I really like that part of consulting as well, working for yourself as well. Cause it’s just like, I don’t, I don’t know, but something will come. I know that that’s something will come. And one of the challenges that I’ve faced is yeah. Sometimes when there’s nothing you get offered something and you go look, that’s not really my skillset, or I’m not super excited about that or, you know, I can do it, but I don’t really want to do it, but my calendar is empty. I’ll jump on it. And I found every time I do that, I’m like, oh, I just need to, you know, just put that in the bank and it’ll be done and it’s a day and it’s, uh, you know, and it’s only a day and what have you. And then inevitably something that is right in my wheelhouse comes along and it has to be on that same day and it pays more and it’s with a group that I’m more excited about, and one of my mentors said to me, early on.
Uh, in the calendar and confirmed is gold. Like if it’s in your calendar and it’s confirmed, you just have to leave that in there and lock it in, which I think is a really good premise. And one I’ve been trying, well, one I have lived by I’ve had to, you know, I’ve turned down lots of opportunities that were exciting, um, based on there already being something in my calendar.
But I always think to myself, I should’ve just held on that extra week cause that awesome bit of work was there and I’ve removed myself from it.
[00:38:12] Swagata: Yeah. Isn’t that just one of the, that’s one of the things about consulting, isn’t it? The, uh, one of the, one of my mentors was saying to me, you’ve got to learn to enjoy those times when you don’t have a lot . And I think in the first year or two, I found that really tricky because I was always a little bit worried what might come, but now I’m starting to really enjoy it when I haven’t got very much on and make the most of it, you know, try and do lots of things that you love, that aren’t work-related because that, that phrase that you said the work comes, there’s plenty of work and it will come.
You know, I think that’s really important. The, and I’ve got a slightly different, uh, approach to you in that I’m I think I’m getting better at saying no to work that I feel a little bit, I’m not sure it’s well-paid, but I’m not really, it’s not really my thing. Um, because yes, I’ve had exactly the same experience where I have said yes and then something that, you know, that I was really like wholeheartedly wanting to do then comes along and I can’t quite fit it in. So. Um, I’m a little bit more likely to take that risk of not having anything for a few weeks, than having that perfect thing come along and then go oh no, I just said yes to something else, but it is, that’s one of the, the interesting challenges around consultancy work. It’s one of the, the, uh, I guess not the downsides, but it means that you don’t have the same sense of certainty that you do in a, in a real job as my parents would call it.
[00:39:55] Brendon: Um, you said a real job and my parents say to me all the time, what do you do again? Explain it to me. According to my wife since working from home, what I do is tell silly stories and bad jokes for a living. And that works for me.
Nothing wrong wht bad jokes.
And yeah, so, but yeah, it’s what do you do? I’ve asked people questions about what they want to do and then ask them questions about how they’re going to do it and, you know, check in with their beliefs and assumptions and strengths and I don’t understand that
[00:40:37] Swagata: It’s much easier to understand the silly jokes
[00:40:39] Brendon: Can you just go and be a lawyer or an accountant, or what is it you do manage a team.
[00:40:45] Swagata: Yeah.
So that’s interesting. I mean, one of the exercises I’ve had to do to, uh, become really clear about describing what I do is explain it to my, uh, eight and nine year old. And that makes a really, you have to be so clear and in the end, um, what does my eight and a half year old say, now, mummy, you just listen to people and then you help them.
And I’m like, okay, I’ll take that. Yeah, that’s kind of simplifies it down to, it was never going to be jokes for me.
[00:41:23] Brendon: Uh, it’s not work for me until I get a groan. That’s when I’m in the zone I’m really bad, terrible jokes. Dad jokes. One of the best things about becoming a dad. You know, getting proper authorization to be able to use one of the best, not the best, but, um, and yeah, the groan is a huge sign for me that, I mean a good spot in. Normally there’s a smattering of laughter, but online that’s really hard because everyone’s on mute and three quarters of people might have their camera off and kind of used to it.
But I feel for participants in workshops, they try and crack a joke. And it’s funny. It’s genuinely funny, but no one responds.
And you can sort of hear the wind go out of their sails and I sat down worry. I thought it was funny if no one else did and everyone else just on mute. So you can’t hear them they’re all in stitches.
[00:42:25] Swagata: It’s tricky. That’s one of the things that has all of that incidental, uh, stuff that happens in workshops and even in just interactions I think, uh, you you’ve lost a lot of that with the move to the online space. So it can be, yeah. That all of the, kind of the water cooler conversations and the, as you just walk past someone at work, I mean, I did an entire, um, piece of work, uh, as an acting clinical director for an organization online without, and got onboarded online and did the whole job online.
And you just miss a lot of the nuances. You can’t just run into someone and say, oh, that was an interesting meeting. What do you think about that without actually making a time? And then you’re less likely to do that. Yeah. So it’s. Really interesting. And some of that stuff that you’re talking about, the humour, the quick jokes, the, yeah, that, that gets a little bit lost.
[00:43:30] Brendon: Big time. So, but I liked that you listened to people and then you help them.
[00:43:36] Swagata: Yeah. I like it too. Why mummy?
[00:43:43] Brendon: Yeah. Why, why, why do you do that? Why do you enjoy that? That’s where my kids are at the moment they’re a bit younger.
[00:43:50] Swagata: How old are your kids?
[00:43:52] Brendon: So a five, nearly six and three.
[00:43:56] Swagata: Oh, I love three, such an inquisitive age. Isn’t it. So, yeah, it’s a lovely age. They’re all lovely ages. But three and four are two of my favorite ages.
[00:44:05] Brendon: It’s been, like I mentioned, we had the landscapers round and so that meant we had a Kanga Digger thing in the backyard for a couple of days, which they thought was great.
And we were making sure that they can go on it effectively. Cause they just wanted to go and ride around on it. And uh, my three year old in particular was quite excited about it. So he’d hear the landscapers show up, he’d go, I want to go outside on the deck. So we’d go outside on the deck and then he’s got a um, a very strong personality at times and he is like, you’ve got to dig it to drive it over there and you can’t do that. And it was just like, the landscapers were fantastic. Um, talking to him and I, as soon as they saw them, they’d sort of turn everything off and, and want to have a chat, which was magnificent with what they were doing. They had plenty to do.
Um, yeah, that was intriguing how that little dynamic played out and then it’s all right, let’s get inside and get ready for school and daycare and what have you. But it was funny watching that little, like how that will show up in his future, like, cause
[00:45:16] Swagata: uh, yeah, I’ve always used, um, my younger daughter was very much like that.
And, uh, she left childcare and the report she got was, you know, she’s showing very strong leadership qualities, laughing thinking yeah, they’re not so much fun at home, those leadership qualities, but I’m glad they’re, you know, they’re playing out well in social situations that childcare. Yeah. Well, I used to do.
Uh, I was a foster carer for many years and we used to have a lot of that three and four year old. Um, often siblings come and stay with us for a few weeks and there’s just, it’s such a beautiful, beautiful age, just naturally curious and so developmentally, just really moving in leaps and bounds in terms of their cognitive skills and yeah, really I really loved that age. Yeah.
[00:46:12] Brendon: Yeah. I heard someone say, you know, about children and look, I want you to be robust and dynamic and, um, confident and forthright, but just not at home. Just grow up to the, all those things, but just not here. Like when I say put your shoes and socks on, it means now not, you know, in 20 minutes when you decide you’ve asked enough questions.
So all my report cards said, you know, Brenodn is a social, um, learner. Brendan talks a lot, Brendan, learn more if he spoke less. Yeah. That was pretty common for me that, you know, to show up and then I went and did some facilitation work like a not a trial, but like an up-skilling. And all we had were asked to do was to introduce ourselves to the other group of facilitators that were there.
And so I got up and I said a few words about who I am and why I do what I do. And this really experienced facilitator turned to me and said, You throw your voice very well. Like no one would struggle to hear you. That’s a really good strength for you to have as a facilitator because it’s going to help you now in the room or to create the environment you want in the room.
And I remember thinking to myself, well that just got me in trouble for 12 years at school, I was in the wrong environment. So I just needed to shift environment, and then it becomes an absolute strength, but it was, it was interesting. Cause my environment was wrong,
[00:47:42] Swagata: That that’s a really interesting theme comes up a lot in coaching. So unsurprisingly, because I’m of Asian background and I’m female, I guess um, I do have more female people that come to vet for female people, more females that come to me for coaching and also, um, people from kind of non typical traditional backgrounds. And one of the really interesting things is that moment where you realize, and this has happened for me when you realize that you’re difference.
Or the thing that kind of, as you say, got you in trouble or left you out or made, you’re not quite fit in. Um, previously is actually this incredible strength and quality that you can really amp up and bring into the work that you do. Uh, and the, I mean, that’s what I’ve just heard you, you know, saying that, you know, 12 years of getting told off and then look at you, perfect skill for a facilitator.
[00:48:47] Brendon: Yeah. So it’s just around where do you need to be for that to become a strength. Um, was, it was a real, I remember like really interesting reframe. And I said that to the lady that gave me the feedback immediately. Like I got into trouble at school for 12 years. So I’m thinking about that completely differently now.
[00:49:10] Swagata: Yeah. That’s amazing. Uh, a colleague of mine, um, who I’ve co-facilitated with, uh, has always said to me, you know, Swagata you’re really good at drawing out that one voice that no one’s hearing or that, that, and I’m like, that’s just my natural, like I will, cause I’ve had to do that for myself that you, you kind of learn to notice who hasn’t got the confidence to speak up or who hasn’t got the confidence to contribute and kind of give their, whatever their unique kind of strength or gift is. And, um, that, yeah, it’s the same as what you’re saying comes from you kind of experience that wasn’t a positive one initially, but is something that you can offer.
[00:49:56] Brendon: Thank you for joining me today. Swagata before we finish up. I have my, um, rapid fire. So I’m just going to throw these at you back to me with whatever makes sense, but, um, let’s just go with it and see where they land. First of all, uh, what fulfills you?
[00:50:18] Swagata: Nurturing and growth.
[00:50:20] Brendon: And what frustrates you?
[00:50:23] Swagata: Really poorly organized meetings. You don’t just bring people together and then go, ah, um, you’ve got to really put a lot of thought into it and plan it well.
[00:50:32] Brendon: If you could recommend one book that everyone should read, what would the book be?
[00:50:39] Swagata: Oh God, that just changes all the time. Come back to me on that one.
[00:50:43] Brendon: All right. We’ve got four questions and then I’ll be back to that.
[00:50:46] Swagata: Uh,
did someone hear the whip crack in the background?
[00:50:53] Brendon: What do you most admire in your counterparts?
[00:50:58] Swagata: Creativity. Honesty. And kindness.
[00:51:04] Brendon: What’s your favorite coaching question?
[00:51:10] Swagata: What’s happening for you right now?
[00:51:14] Brendon: Uh, if you weren’t a coach, what would you be?
[00:51:21] Swagata: Do you want the wacky answer or the. The, the kind of in the middle answer,
[00:51:28] Brendon: Always the wacky one.
[00:51:33] Swagata: Uh, the lead singer in a gospel band.
[00:51:38] Brendon: There you go. And if you could tell your younger self anything, what would it be
[00:51:46] Swagata: you’re doing well, just keep going.
[00:51:50] Brendon: Ok we’re back to the book.
[00:51:53] Swagata: I’ve got so many books.
[00:51:56] Brendon: That’s what makes the one book the, the fun bit.
[00:52:00] Swagata: I’m reading the art of gathering by Priya Parker. Beautiful, really lovely book. And, um, I just love her approach to how to bring people together and, uh, that, that there’s a purpose to when people come together.
[00:52:17] Brendon: Wonderful. Very good. Well, thank you for joining me for the second of 12 podcasts, you’ll be on looking forward to tracking down the other 11 and listening through to them and appreciate your time today.
[00:52:31] Swagata: Thanks so much. It’s been really lovely. So thank you.
[00:52:34] Brendon: I agree. Thank you.