Phil Preston joins Brendon Le Lievre to discuss the importance of purpose, how it motivates us and how to find it in the shades of grey between staying in your current role and becoming a solopreneur.
Phil also shares how he identifies the important elements of his business, the support structures he uses to stay focussed and how he structures his day to do the most important tasks when he has the best energy.
You can connect with Phil on LinkedIn, through his website https://philpreston.com.au/ and buy his book Connecting Profit with Purpose here.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon: Hello, and welcome to the coach conversations podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. I’m your host, Brendon Le Lievre . And today I’m joined by Phil Preston. Welcome
[00:00:14] Phil: Phil. Hey Brendon. Lovely to be here.
[00:00:17] Brendon: Looking forward to hearing a bit about what you do with helping people find their purpose and, and bring that to fruition.
Definitely something I’ve been bumping into a lot in my own coaching. Uh, how did you come to be so focused on helping others find their purpose?
[00:00:37] Phil: Yeah, it came probably very much from a corporate angle, to be honest and I won’t go through the full backstory now. Maybe we’ll dig into that later, but, uh, yeah, I guess a little bit of disenchantment about where the corporate world was going, what was going on there.
And, uh, and I sorta went through a lot of machinations, quite an evolution, to be honest, um, after going out on my own in 2008 and, uh, it’s really in the last two years I’ve landed on sort of doing the same thing, but just putting the right branding around it, that the market’s ready for at the time. So as it turns out two years ago, purpose, it was really good timing because it was just before it became really popular at a corporate level.
And, um, I think at a personal level, it’s always going to resonate. However, it’s, uh, it’s a little bit like the term innovation or collaboration sort of people use it all the time, but they don’t really understand, what it means. I don’t claim I’ve got all the answers either, but you know, to be able to put things into frameworks and help people unpack what’s going on is, is quite rewarding.
Yeah.
[00:01:43] Brendon: Yeah. And what have you noticed when organizations or groups of people get clear on what their purpose is. What’s the change that happens as a result of that?
[00:01:52] Phil: They typically get, get scared because what they realize is let me use the corporate example first we’ve gone from an age with even say, five years ago, a corporate purpose statement was something organizations threw out there and people would go, yeah, isn’t that great, but they wouldn’t actually do anything about it.
Um, but now, you know, since about two years, 18 months ago, um, there’s been a lot of things going on globally and that there’s a whole story around, what’s really driving this because it’s not always what, what we think it is, the companies are now being challenged by investors. For example, to really let the world know what their purpose is, what is that benefit to society they’re hoping to deliver in a profitable way, rather than saying we’re gonna make some profits and then give a little bit back. You know, how is the core of the business actually aligned around purpose? So once you start doing that, it’s no longer a side conversation and it’s, wow, we better rethink everything. We might be on the right track, but we’ve got to rethink everything and then it almost becomes overwhelming.
Um, likewise from a personal perspective, I think maybe it’s a generational thing as well, because we’ve historically thought that, uh, look a bit of giving, a bit of volunteering. Um, That’s bringing meaning and purpose to our lives and perhaps it is, but we’re sort of in a place in the world right now were just doing a little bit, probably isn’t enough, you know, we’ve, we’ve really got to pull hard on a lot of issues that are threatening our very existence. So it’s sort of elevating that, that thing and saying, well, maybe purposes that the rudder or the mind state to help you do bigger and better things and amplify your impact many times over.
So I get really excited about that whole idea of amplifying impact whether it’s individuals or organizations and the techniques. So the value add I can bring is not to necessarily solve their problem and tell them what to do. It’s to give them the techniques and Brendon you as a coach would resonate well, I’m sure with that, this whole conversation, maybe I’m more of a coach than I thought I was.
[00:03:59] Brendon: It’s funny, like funny how often I’ll do coaching skills for leaders or coaching training programs and people go I’m already doing a lot of these. It’s like, yeah, they’re good skills that put you in good state. It’s when you use them intentionally, but know you can really dial that up.
So, you know, not separating profit from it. It’s. Profit is a part of what it is, but it’s more than that. And it’s sort of taking corporate social responsibility, not from our, we do all this bad stuff over here, but we’ve got a good corporate social responsibility section.
We make some donations and we’ve run a, you know, an endowment or a scholarship program. So just ignore all that bad stuff. It’s this is what we do and we make some money doing it.
[00:04:43] Phil: Yeah. Well, you look, look at any of the companies that, that do have some, um, obvious effects on the environment or on society.
What gaming companies would be an example, how do you weigh up the, uh, you know, the benefit versus the, the damage that’s being done? It’s, it’s very difficult. Um, I think being in a profit world is easy because everything comes down to one thing, which is dollars. When you start going into the world of social and environmental impacts, you have multidimensions and therefore, you know, can you say one thing, offsets another yes.
Crown casino, for example, is employing lots of people. On the other hand, they’re contributing to gambling problems in people’s lives, perhaps, um, helping you offset those things. Um, it becomes very tricky and I think there’s some in the world, you know, we say, well, company manufacturing, cluster bombs, or munitions is a bad thing.
And we’ll exclude that from, we won’t deal with them. We won’t invest in them, but there’s a whole lot of companies in the middle where they’re not so easy to say yes and no to. And I think that was one of my revelations when I’m back when I was working in the investment industry many years ago that this thing called ethical investing came around and you know, the name, it sounds great.
I love the idea of ethical investing and being ethical. However, it became really hard to say, yes, we invest in this. And we know we don’t invest in that because things aren’t generally black and white. And once you start playing that black and white game, it becomes very difficult and you get companies like VW who were held up as everyone went, wow, this is a fantastic company, and then there was the emission scandal, whatever they said, this is a terrible company. And, you know, Nothing really changing the company that much from, from one day to the next and yet they were great one day and terrible the next day. So, um, it was really perceptions of what they were doing that change.
So, uh, yeah, I guess I bring a, maybe a pragmatic hat to this whole conversation, which can suit some people and really annoy others.
[00:06:43] Brendon: And that’s, I think that’s a really good example as well with VW. Yeah, one day, they’re fine. Something happens and we judge it differently and I think that’s one of the interesting things about ethics as well, right?
Is that by whose ethical standards are we judging that because different people will see the same situation in completely different ways, no matter which ethical framework or model or theory you put over the top of it. And, and how do we then get clear on what. Yeah, it’s good to bring the purpose to life.
[00:07:19] Phil: Yeah. Well, what is good? And, uh, you know, we’re heading towards a world where we’re starting to think about and do more measurement of those dimensions of what companies are doing. However, that’s going to still take many years to get there. So in the meantime, you know, we’re, we have some difficult decisions to make, um, and to live with. And the one thing that really stands out to me, and this is probably going back 15 years when I was a traveling the world as a investment research manager and having great times talking to investment funds in California, and this conversation stuck out because the investment fund was saying, oh yes so we’ve, um, we’ve banned tobacco stocks from our portfolio and we’ve banned this type of mining and we, we banned forestry, but then we realized we’re running out of things to invest in. So we let half of the forestry operators in. And anyway, that whole conversation really concerned me because I thought, you know, we’ve got to mainstream this thing, we can’t just say this is good and bad.
Um, we’ve, we’ve got to mainstream, uh, I guess the idea of what’d you call it creating value for society with minimum harm and, uh, yeah. That’s tough.
[00:08:34] Brendon: Hmm. I like that. You’re a reflection of people, organizations when they get scared when they get clear on what their purpose was. I did some work with a group when I was working in the public services team to try and define our purpose because we were in a branch that had four operational sort of activities in it, it’s really clear what they did. So think, you know, recruitment and onboarding and training and what have you. And then there was sort of our section and it was like, what do we do? What’s our purpose? And, you know, it, it kind of just, it felt like to me, that that kind of meant that oh, it doesn’t sit with one of those groups. And so we’ll give it to this group and we just ended up with all the stuff. And I thought if we just pause and think about why we exist and what it is, that’s going to be different as a result of us being together, then we can at least have more of a conversation beyond, or we’re too busy or we’ve got all this other stuff that you gave us.
Yeah.
[00:09:35] Phil: And it’s asking for alignment across the organization, which is quite challenging. If you go back in any corporate for business environment, 10 years, where you typically would have the different divisions, almost headed up by people who are competing against each other. And, uh, you know, that was, you know, which director or executive is going to lead this company the best and be the future talent.
And it was out an out war quite often. So you, in many ways, I think. Uh, business or any organization being clear about its purpose takes a lot of it might be difficult to get there in the first place, but then it takes a lot of problems out of play because it becomes very clear what’s in scope and what’s out of scope.
Whereas today, if you’re not clear, it’s people nothing around and it can be a function of who’s there at the time.
[00:10:22] Brendon: Yeah. Um, and that’s what we found. We got it printed out, got it all signed off and, and then we could just point everything back to what does it help us to do to achieve that?
[00:10:34] Phil: And did you have KPIs aligned to it as well?
Yeah, so that’s powerful that that is, I don’t reckon may people get to that point.
[00:10:43] Brendon: Yeah. And there were some times where, you know, senior leaders went well, you know, that’s a nice document. Um, but we need you to do this, so just go and do it. And it was like, okay, at least we had the conversation, you know, and the other times they went, oh yeah, that probably doesn’t quite fit with you let me go and see if it sits somewhere else. So, but it did take some, you know, there were some conversations that happened to bring that to life and to make that happen. That’s definitely the case. Hmm.
[00:11:10] Phil: Sounds like fun.
[00:11:13] Brendon: Oh, it was good fun. It was, yeah, it was entertaining seeing it all come to fruition. I mean, you know, the other way that I’ve seen purpose show up quite a bit is people will mention it in interviews.
So I scribed for federal government recruitment for a while, which means I’ve sat in 350 to 375 public service interviews, um, which is really insightful to see how people would answer those questions. But often people would. The, uh, why did you apply for the job question? They would mention the department’s purpose in that opening statement.
You know, I’m really passionate about, you know, health, defense, border security, quarantine, safety, whatever it might’ve been finance, um, collection of taxation and, but used the words of the department’s purpose and, and sometimes the panel members, would sort of sit around and go, well, that was. Yeah, really interesting words they’ve used to describe what we do, where did they get them from? And because I’d done some sort of reading before and I’d be like, well then your vision and your mission statement, the reason your organization exists. Oh, I wasn’t aware of that.
[00:12:22] Phil: Interesting.
[00:12:23] Brendon: It’s always surprised me that, you know, there’s, these things are developed and publicized and out there.
Quite often, people aren’t even aware of the fact that they exist or what they are.
[00:12:37] Phil: That’s right and I think there’s currently some confusion around the idea of purpose and general, um, practices within organizations. So in the corporate world, people use the term ESG, environmental, social, and governance factors, their businesses facing and purpose and ESG factors are kind of, sort of linked, but not quite.
Um, so, you know, the purpose, uh, for example, a company like Cochlear, their purpose is to help people hear and be heard. And it’s a really great example of a company conveying that societal benefit that it’s say aiming to produce. However, if you then go down a layer and become more operational they’ve, they’re managing a whole range of stakeholders in across all different fields.
So you can, you can break down all the workforce issues. Uh, just about every issue, any large company faces, and you’ll find they’ll have to have an ESG policy or practice under each of them spent. Um, so a lot of that is about risk and reputation, that lower piece. Um, whereas the, the top line is really about the company stating, why we exist and what value is we aim to create for society in a profitable way, if it’s a company, but it can be a not-for-profit organization. It can be government department, it just gets people clear. But so there are different levels of conversations that go on and unfortunately they sometimes get mixed in together and people need clarity to pull them apart and really understand what they’re talking about.
[00:14:13] Brendon: Mm. Hmm. And why do you think there’s been the increased focus on purpose?
[00:14:19] Phil: Uh, look, I think, um, right now a lot of people are ascribing it to the pandemic. However, I, I don’t believe that’s the case at all. Um, it almost goes back. Uh, if I go back about 15 years when I was just leaving the investment industry, there was some initial conversation then about, um, these ESG factors or these risks that companies were facing, but that evolved over time.
And we got to a point about, I think it was about two and a half, three years ago. Um, where it was really brought home, um, in the U S by, um, what’s one of the business councils there that sort of said, look, we’re, we’re no longer living in a stakeholder or sorry, a shareholder capitalism world we’re living in a stakeholder capitalism world. And even though they might not actually changed a lot, um, within their member organizations or member companies overnight, there was this switching on that you can only be successful today if you are really good at managing and adding value to all the key stakeholder groups of your business.
And it took a long time to get there. The reason that was, I think so groundbreaking to get there. Was because historically we’ve lived in a, in a planet of unlimited growth. Um, you know, people still finding ore deposits, discovering new lands. And, but there comes a point where you realize this is a very finite world. So you can’t, I guess, um, treat one group of stakeholders really badly. And you know, you can’t expect that to be invisible to the market, the market will find out. With technology and communications, you can’t hide those things anymore. So it’s a whole lot of things has been ramping up and ramping up. And, uh, you know, I think we see right now with, um, The additional government debt or budget deficits that will be incurring due to COVID.
For example, means people are going to be saying, well, you can’t say as a gaming company or whatever you are, go out and cause a whole lot of problems for society and expect taxpayers to fix. Um, so that whole groundswell, um, that pressure is increasing a lot. So we’re looking at a trend that’s here to stay.
And I think we’re right now, we’re at a point where most major companies in the world of being pressed to review their purpose statement and the next phase, and we’ll be going through this for a little while. I think the next phase will be, they’ll have to provide measurements and be able to prove whether they are actually delivering that purpose, because right now we’re in the glory days of just saying we’ve got something, no, one’s actually holding you to account to it, but that accountability will increase. And that is all being driven very much by, um, the, the pension fund market in the, not just Australia, but the world, because those investors control more and more money and have more say over what corporations do and don’t do.
And, uh, that that’s the real driver. Um, let’s bring in this. Hmm.
[00:17:22] Brendon: Yeah. And what does that meant for individuals from your perspective?
[00:17:29] Phil: I think it’s a great thing for individuals. Um, Ah, look, if you look at the types of companies are getting launched and growing today, you’d be hard pressed to find one that wasn’t very strongly aligned with some real societal need.
But if we look at the legacy companies and the ones that are still large and who in many cases acquire those growing companies, um, a lot of them are still really challenged with what they do and the impacts they create in generating a profit. So, um, I think, um, ultimately for people it’s going to be great because we should live in this world where everyone understands what the purpose of their business or organization is, how their role and their team contributes to that, delivering that purpose.
And I think that’s a, that’s a really great place to be. And that’s the idea. Um, and, and I can see things trending that way, but we’re going to be in this, I think stage we’re just in this initial, wow, isn’t this great stage. Um, we sort of need to do it and say we’re doing it. And then over the next, probably five years, uh, you know, this whole thing’s going to start maturing and then uh, you know, I think, um, from a real personal perspective, the relationship between companies and employees, you know, it’s been, it’s been challenged, um, because you can’t just say you’re there to help your people. You’ve really got to become a life partner with your people. I think if you want to prevent them from leaving and going to another organization, there’s gotta be something there that’s going to make them want to stay and that’s not a volunteering program. That’s not a matched giving program. It’s something far bigger than that. So, so that’ll be the challenge and there’ll be winners and losers losers in that game.
[00:19:12] Brendon: Yeah. I am seeing that a little bit in my one-on-one coaching is people saying I’m not super clear on what my purpose is and what I’m trying to achieve here, but I know it’s no longer this. I don’t want to do this anymore. And so a lot of the conversations are around. What, what are you, what is it you’re trying to do? You know, why is it that that’s important to you knowing that, you know, why can be a sort of a challenging question?
And I was thinking before this conversation, like, what’s your purpose is if you don’t ask that in quite the right way, that could be a challenging question as well. Like what’s this what’s its purpose. Why do we even have it is all intent. It’s like, what’s the impact you want to have. Um, and do you think it’s a generational thing?
I think
[00:19:59] Phil: it’s good question. It’s impacting generations. In different ways. This is a broad brush answer. But if we look at, say the three, if we look at X, Y, and Z, so I’m a gen X, um, you’re clearly younger than me, um, by the way, Brendon. So you must be gen Y
boy in the gen Y.
So if we think about Gen X, which thinks about 40 to 55, roughly, um, you know, where we’re getting used to change and saying, okay, well, purpose is more than just giving a donation and volunteering here and there we’ve actually got to, um, in many cases where the Bond’s sort of. Some of the decisions or controlling the conversation. Um, so we’ve got to start pointing in a slightly different direction and learning new skills. Um, so that is kind of, sort of challenging. And I don’t know how many gen Xs are really going to understand that and get on board with it because we’ve grown up with this different mindset. Um, so in many ways, I, I prefer working with gen X and Y because it’s, there’s a bigger problem there, gen Y uh, probably the meat in the sandwich, I think because, uh, gen Z, for example, and my children are Gen-Z . They know there’s problems out there. Um, they know that the generation that’s going to be wearing it. Um, they are actually willing to trade off salary for a job, you know, some salary, not all of the salary, but some of their salary for job that has real meaning and purpose. Whereas gen Y con sort of said they would, but they didn’t actually do it. Um, Gen Y was caught in that, in that middle zone. And that middle zone is really hard because at 25 to 40 years old is gen Y is at the moment. That’s the time in your life where typically you’re having a family. You’re getting a mortgage and you are really focused on earning money to deliver for your family and pay off your debts. And it’s tough too, because you probably don’t want to be there half the time. You want to be cataloging butterflies in Papua New Guinea, or we’re doing something also with a lot more purpose.
So, um, so I see that as a, as a big challenge, but also a huge opportunity. ’cause, I don’t think people really understand how they get purpose and the different avenues that it comes through. And one of the upshots of the work I do, and the reason I can go on and I guess, get an employer to be enthusiastic about this conversation is I’m not advising people to leave their jobs and go and join the circus. I’m sort of saying, well, actually, let’s just increase your awareness of how purpose manifests for you. And let’s start thinking about how we can optimize that within the context of your job, your role, the complex life that you lead. And a lot of that is initially around mindset.
Um, but then there’s some practical tools and methods to go through. So, um, you know, it’s not an easy space because there’s a lot of moving parts and, um, but I’ve been through myself and I’m sure many, maybe you’ve been through it Brendon. Many of your clients are going through that whole thing of, um, I love work or I don’t quite like work or work’s changed.
Um, therefore I really want to do something where I think I want to do something else, but I’m not entirely sure why I want to do something else. Um, it’s a fascinating conversation. And if you can just increase your guidance around that, um, then, then that’s rewarding. And just, just one final thing to add. When I started doing this work with companies and executives and organizations, I initially thought it would be the ones who have no idea about purpose, who would be my clients, but it actually turns out, they’re probably too far away. It’s the ones who already sort of intuitively get this, but they just need some confidence they’re on the right track and they need some tools to help make it happen. So that’s been part of my big journey is figuring that out.
[00:24:02] Brendon: Yeah. I’m always fascinated by what people do sorta extracurricularly, like they have their job.
And then it’s like, and what else, what else do you do? Where do you spend your weekends? And they coach a sporting team, or they’re a scout leader, or they, you know, run a photography business or they make key rings or what, you know, whatever it is and sell the jewelry and sell it at the markets. And there’s always this it’s like, why, why do you.
What do you get out of doing that? What’s the drive? Cause it’s, it’s usually volunteer as well. So it’s not the money. Sometimes there’s a money component, financial component, but it’s like, what’s the drive behind that. Um, and why are you doing that? And then how can you bring some of that into what it is you do on your day-to-day role job?
So that you’re not You know, just getting purpose from there, as you say, it sort of manifests in many different ways and what might that be? And, you know, I think that’s probably a fair insight for me is, you know, similar situation, right? Um, young family, I had an eight month old when I left the public service and was just unfulfilled in what I was doing.
Wasn’t, you know, it’s not reflective of the organization or the team or the manager, I had an eight month old and I think, yeah, through some of the other work I do with dads, it’s quite common. You know, that when people become dads, it’s like, well, now I know what my values are and I’m, um, I’m either living them and that’s great, or I’m not, how do I bring that about?
And it was just, you know, what do I do here? How do I navigate this? I’ve got a young family, I’ve got a wife on, on leave or half pay. Um, you know, part-time hours. Got all these other responsibilities. And, and I remember building that conversation that I needed to have with my wife up. And I, I sort of said to her one day, look, I’m kind of done I want to leave and go and explore other things. And she went, all right, if that’ll make you happy, like that’s fine. Um, I was like, okay,
well, I think there are different ways. And so now it’s, you know, it’s interesting. Do you mind if I stay part time and I’m like, of course, like that’s gives you a better balance. Like, let’s make that happen. But you know, then the conversation turned to, well, what are you going to use to fill the gap?
What’s the work that you’re going to go and do. Um, and because I’m clearer on what it is I’m trying to create in the world. I can be a little bit more discerning about not that opportunity, not that job, you know, not that, not in that method. I don’t want to work full-time for that organization, or I don’t want to, you know, whatever it might be go permanent there at, at, at the moment.
Like all these things might change, but it was interesting around that. Um, Yeah, that gen Y bracket wanting it, but maybe not going to get it, having stepped into that. I can understand some of the challenges that they might face. Cause 12 months earlier, a good mate of mine, who I carpooled home with, we pulled into his driveway on a Friday afternoon.
And I said to him, how was it? Like, how was your day he went, oh yeah. My job today. Sorry, what?
It’s sort of like this throwaway statement and I’m like, well, we’re just going to sit in the driveway and talk about that for the next half an hour. What do you mean you’ve quit? You’ve got young family, mortgage, this, that, and the other, and you’re a hundred percent the right decision for him from an external point of view, a hundred percent the right decision for me from an internal one. Like I said, it doesn’t mean it’s always easy, but it’s just, it’s been a better outcome for many many reasons.
[00:27:55] Phil: I feel sorry for you because you lost your carpool there.
[00:27:58] Brendon: Yeah, that’s right. That was like, oh, well, we’ll have to find someone else to cut couple in with or what have you.
That’s right.
[00:28:05] Phil: I think a lot of it is, um, this is my own story as well. Um, but a lot of people who realize or think they need change, sort of go, well, the only way I can do this is to leave, leave work. Um, that was my mindset. That was, I now know that that, that was wrong or wasn’t including a whole range of other options.
Um, so yeah, so like I’m in or I’m out, but there are other shades of gray in there and doesn’t have to be that drastic. So that can be the challenge is to navigate through that, I think.
[00:28:38] Brendon: And you said even just having conversations about the awareness of how you’re living your purpose or aligning with your purpose can help people.
What sort of insights do people get from those chats?
[00:28:52] Phil: Yeah. What I love about. Purpose, excuse me. Um, especially in group discussions. And once you have permission to, uh, from the group to talk a little bit about things or they want to talk about it, I love to actually ask people without any real buildup to it.
You know, what does purpose mean to you? Because the sorts of answers, they come out with a very, very varied. So, uh, you have to be, you have to have that conversation to start with, to make people realize it is very different for other people. And today we can’t talk about everything. Um, we’re, we’re going to talk about some things and not othersso to frame that up.
Um, but. The range of things that people say, you know, his purpose for them can be anything from providing for their family. And, you know, meeting those basic needs. And by the way, I’m not saying any, none of these are right or wrong, there’s, people’s perceptions of purpose. So you have that providing, um, aspect.
Um, there’s, there’s a, there’s a piece around, I think, uh, I call it wellbeing, which is, you know, I’m, I’m going to work every day and I feel valued in my job. That’s, uh, that’s part of wellbeing. You know, you have opportunities to experience some joy in your life. That’s wellbeing. Um, some of that comes from connection, belonging.
So there’s that base level of purpose. Um, the third level is more around the word I’ve put on it, um, is thriving. That’s when you get super excited and engaged and totally into what you’re doing, whether it’s at work or at home. Yeah. And you know what those things are. Um, you know, it’s when your values are aligned with the people you’re working with or working alongside or having conversations with it’s all those things.
You jumped out of bed every day and you just can’t wait to take on the day. And then there’s, um, the top level, I think is the one we often talk. I think we often mean when we say purpose, but it’s that higher purpose piece it’s around giving. So how do I help other people. Um, in a non-contractual way. So I’m prepared to provide assistance or support or help, and I’m not expecting anything directly in return, but I’m, I’m enjoying the fact that I’m helping someone else.
Um, so yeah, look in a work context that can come through in a work context, someone who’s say helping the environment through their work or, uh, you know, that can, um, it can all manifest in many different ways. So I love to ask people. What purpose means for them, because it will fit generally into one or two of those categories.
And, um, you alluded to something I’m a minute to go, which I think was very important as well. This is not static. Um, as your life changes, even from day to day or month to month, you know, you’re this whole strategy or around what purpose could or should be if you could change as well. Um, the advent of, uh, you know, a baby coming along, uh, probably means you’re going to have less spare time on your hands, so you’re not gonna be able to do what you did before. And I think the challenge is to maximize, assuming you want to maximize your impact. Um, but that is the challenge is to maximize it within the constraints and opportunities of your everyday life. And that’s going to be, uh, from now until we push off this mortal coil, that’s going to be a constantly changing feast.
[00:32:17] Brendon: Yeah. I’m always fascinated by those people. That are in that jump out of bed. Just love everything. So excited about whatever it is that they are doing. Uh, w it doesn’t even, it doesn’t matter what the content is. Even from my point of view, I just love that passion that people show and to sit and listen to them, talk about whatever it is that they’re right into is always entertaining for me.
If even if it’s something I have no concept or understanding about if they’re excited about it. I like to be excited about it with them and, and hear them talk about those different things.
[00:32:56] Phil: That’s the beauty of podcasts these days as well. Isn’t it? We can, we can tune into other people’s passions and excitement as well as the one-on-one stuff.
[00:33:04] Brendon: Yeah. So very, very entertaining when that happens. So what happened for you? I think you said 17 years ago, when you stepped out of that finance world into what it is you’re doing.
[00:33:16] Phil: Yeah, well, it was, um, about 14 years ago. Uh, but leading up to that, I’d been working in the investment industry for about 17 years.
And, um, yeah, look, and this is what benefit of hindsight I was sort of going along nicely in my career, I was up at a non-executive level level, but I was a specialist and an investment researcher and leading a team. I’d been a portfolio manager. And so I was leading a team and we had $50 billion of, of global investments we had to oversee and monitor on a daily basis. The portfolio managers, how their investments are going. Um, so that was all fun. And I’ve got to this point, it was around 2006 where it almost felt like things were locked in. Um, in other words, I could see that I could just stick this out for another five or 10 years.
Hmm. I’ll probably be able to retire I’m in my mid forties as a 50 year old and be comfortable enough to do whatever I want, but it was at that very moment when I realized that was happening. Um, there was no other goal beyond that. You know what, actually all that time, I’d just been slaving to try and meet one of those basic levels of being, you know, well enough off, not to worry about putting food on the table.
And once that became a possibility of a reality. Um, I had some real challenges in my own mind that my own head around why I was doing what I was doing. And, um, some people call it a midlife crisis and other people might call it a nervous breakdown and take your pick. Um, the one, I guess, good thing that I had done. And Karen and I had done was we hadn’t bought a lavish house or a lavish car. The kids weren’t in private school. So we’d built up a little bit of a buffer that allowed me to have some flexibility in what I did, but I did in my work environment, got to a point where, um, I was sort of masking a lot of issues and problems that were going on with me.
So my boss had no idea that I was in this state of absolute crisis. I was really feeling the negative aspects of the culture of the place I was working in, um, you know, being in a, like an emerging leaders dinner one night and, uh, this long table, there was about 30 people at this dinner and it, this is one long table notable for the fact that the conversation was very barbed, it was very political peopl were, sort of positioning a little bit. So it wasn’t, they weren’t being them. Um, but also. Title of 30 people. I think there’s 29 males and one female. So it was out of whack, but it wasn’t just that it was still a contributing factor. I’d also started playing in a band because I needed some creative outlet, as much as I, I love my job and the challenges it brings and I get growth out of it, professional growth. It’s just, I make a call now, do I do this for the rest of my life or not? And I chose not. Um, luckily had a very supportive partner and, you know, wedding vows we’d actually, um, which has many years before that we’d agree that personal growth was a priority for, for each of us. Um, we’ll put that down to her maturity, not mine putting that in the wedding vows.
So. Yeah, look, this, this reckoning came along and, um, I just sorta turned up to my, my boss one day and said, thanks. You’ve been great. Company’s been great. But, um, I’m checking out and it wouldn’t have mattered what amount of money he put on the table. If you had to put money on the table, it would not have changed my decision whatsoever.
Um, so yeah, that, that was, I guess, that journey. And then into the wilderness of, uh, trying to build a business as a solopreneur in, uh, With, without the skills you typically need to be a solopreneur, because I realized I’d been this person who lived in a corporate environment, in a corporate infrastructure orient as an investment specialist.
It’s probably a bit like being a dentist. You’ve got all these great skills, but they’re not that valuable outside of the dental world. Um, what, uh, how are you going to live your life now? So that was, that was a real legit. Yeah, it’s still, it’s still is a journey.
[00:37:41] Brendon: It’s one I enjoyed as well where it’s like, oh, HR that they know there’s no one over there to do that. Oh finance, they do that. Oh no, this it’s, there’s no one over there to do that. Oh yeah. Organizational strategy. Oh they do that. No one, no, that’s me again, to sit down and to, so this, you know, what is it that I’m going to do? How am I going to do it? Who am I going to do? What we’ve, uh, What sort of the financial implications of all of that and how do I? Because I just want to coach, I don’t coach a facilitator. That’s why I let it, I’ll go and do that. But if you don’t do that,
[00:38:18] Phil: Yeah, I, um, I got into speaking and although, while this is great, if 90% of the work must be coming up with a good speech, right. And not realizing that that was actually 10% of the work, the 90% was around building a business and having all those business skills that would allow you to make an income from delivering that speech.
So it took a while to figure that out,
[00:38:39] Brendon: all that personal growth, but so,
[00:38:42] Phil: yeah. Yeah. Well, I wouldn’t change a thing, but when I look back at it now, I think, wow. If I’m only, it was so like, I got to this point where I realize purpose is a thing. I hadn’t even thought about it up until that stage before, you know, what is my purpose and I panicked and just sort of checked out instead of thinking, okay, well, how could I potentially I was in a big organization, um, was part of, one of the big banks. We’re a division within there. It was so many options. Um, waiting there. I just didn’t even have the thought process to say, well, maybe I should look elsewhere within the existing structure, um, to gain that greater sense of purpose, but maybe it wasn’t even there, but I didn’t even have the awareness to question if it was there.
[00:39:27] Brendon: Yeah. And I think, you know, that I’ve made the decision to leave point. It’s interesting. You say, doesn’t matter what they put on the table. You’ve already made that decision. I think it’s challenge for organizations to not let people get to that point where they’re done, irrespective of what gets thrown at them.
And, and they just, they lose people as a result because. And maybe there, there was a role for whoever that person might’ve been in the organization where they would have thrived and they would’ve been able to achieve their purpose and they would have been able to contribute and hang on to that corporate knowledge.
Or maybe it was time for them to go and find their own thing. And like you say, neither is right or wrong. It’s just a, where are we at? And what are we reflecting on ?
And that’s,
[00:40:18] Phil: I think the challenge, the challenge and the opportunity, because people will want different things. Um, what you regard as being purposed will be different to what I think about it, and everyone else will have their own take on it.
So, uh, I think organizations need to be able to understand what that thing is, and they might not be able to cater to everyone, but they can make some sensible investments look for group of people that might be supporting them in what they do outside of. Uh, outside of work, um, for others, they might just get totally amped up by some of the positive impacts they make through their products and services that they buy sell, and it could be bringing that more to life.
Um, and I think with this whole idea of corporate or organizational purpose coming to the fore, that part is, is now taken care of itself to some degree, but you’ve still got to make people feel connected to it and engaged in it rather than just a, a pawn in a, in a bigger game. And that comes back to those good old fashion chestnuts like culture and.
Uh, well, there’s things that sound easy, but are incredibly hard to do, but I think you have purpose in an organizational sense. It gives you a really strong rudder and foundation by which everyone is agreeing that you sort of conform to or strive for. So in my mind, it should make life easier, but it’s still complex.
[00:41:43] Brendon: The one example of saying if that’s worked well and it wasn’t easy was there was a director that I worked for a federal government agency that went and got his bosses position, description, role statement, whatever it was, uh, or asked her for it. And I think she said, oh, I don’t have one. He went, okay. I might just draft one up for you to run your eyes over.
Would that be, can you see? That’s fine. So, you know, did that, and then he spent the time. Uh, mapping his contribution to what she was responsible for, and then got us, uh, as the next level down to map our contribution to what he was responsible for and so on and so forth throughout the section. And it took forever, you know, revisiting it, versioning it and making sure they were all signed off, getting the right people, to be clear on what it was and why, and you know, the organizations shifting around us at the time.
So it’s trying to, you know, keep it all. It paid off because it, then it meant that that everyone in the team from sort of entry-level position all the way up to senior executive could say, here’s how I contribute to that part of what the organization is doing
[00:42:59] Phil: That’s powerful.
[00:43:00] Brendon: It was huge, but it was a massive investment to get it stood up and a real commitment from him to drive that forward in the face of many, many challenges and obstacles.
[00:43:13] Phil: And then you’ve got to maintain it as well as people change as things alter here and there, those things can be easily, you know, so much energy getting there. And then sometimes it just little things can cause them to fall by the wayside again.
[00:43:25] Brendon: Yeah. So I’m not sure it’s still up to date that was many years ago now, you know, it’s something I reflect on and how you can then. People can sort of focus on what, what that is. I D I did similar actually in, in a section I led or part of a section that I led, um, in the it service management space, which was years ago now.
But, um, Know, all I did was get the framework, best practice framework for the process that we were delivering and say to my team, this is the bit we’re focused on for this month. So what is it that you’re going to do in this month that will improve this capability within the organization? And it seems like kind of, uh, uh, not that much effort to do thing, but it created really good outcomes. Cause people were like, oh, well this is what I’m doing to make that happen.
[00:44:23] Phil: Yep.
[00:44:24] Brendon: And then we just ended up with that sort of plastered around the place on the back of every agenda that, you know, document was attached and it really did change the way people thought about the work they were doing, as opposed to just clunking away at whatever it was.
So it doesn’t always have to be the big grand gesture with the huge launch party, I suppose.
[00:44:49] Phil: That’s right. And I think that’s the challenge for a lot of organizations when they start at the top, they come out with a very shiny purpose statement, but then, uh, the best practices and often they have three pillars sitting underneath that.
So we sort of start breaking it down or means one, two, and three. And then there’s to further filter that down. And I think where you have a lot of, some of the biggest challenges there, um, I’ve noticed that when you have say within an organization. Uh, a department or an area that’s a support service, for example, HR, or, you know, it’s not, not someone making the product or selling the product or inventing the product, um, or a, you know, say an external firm, like a firm of lawyers or accountants.
There is sort of. The sort of a player in the chain for that for other businesses. Um, so they’ve got to get really clear on understanding how they contribute to the purpose of other departments or other organizations. Um, they takes a bit of work, as you say, it takes a bit of thought, but it’s not, it’s not impossible.
Um, it’s an exciting opportunity.
[00:45:58] Brendon: What’s your, uh, proudest sort of moment with regards to the work you do?
[00:46:05] Phil: Crikey, Um, The proudest moment is always, and I’ll be interested to hear how this compares to yourself because it’s often getting that email or a phone call from someone you haven’t heard of for a long time and referring back to something you might’ve done with them five years ago.
Um, well, three years ago and, and, um, you sit there going, oh, isn’t that great. Someone’s actually done something with this. And they’ve had a great success. And because as a, you know, if you’re a facilitator or a speaker or a consultant, sometimes, you know, you leave, you leave your, if your field of work and you don’t really know what’s happening.
You don’t know if anyone’s doing anything with it, but when you get those little return, um, stories and connections, um, that’s it. I think that’s one of the better feelings you really get out of this whole game.
[00:46:59] Brendon: Yeah. It’s not always easy to know who the impact you’ve had in the moment that it happens.
[00:47:07] Phil: It’s a long game.
[00:47:12] Brendon: Usually find out quickly if someone’s not happy about something, that feedback comes through pretty quick. It’s the, the big life-changing stuff that happens 3, 4, 5 years down the track. Yeah. Yeah. And how, what do you have in place to support you then while you’re waiting for those phone calls all those emails.
[00:47:34] Phil: I’d love to think. I just, um, sit around all day waiting for those, uh, phone calls. Um, but. Yeah, there’s sort of four aspects to business, I think in my world and probably most people who are doing similar things, just in different forms. And that is, is about, um, managing, um, I guess the administrative aspect of the business.
Um, it’s about getting the business, um, delivering the business and then working on the business. Um, and I find every day is a challenge between figuring out which one of them you’re going to focus on today, which one has the priority and with a speech or a facilitated session coming up, you know, you know, you’ve got to focus at some point in time on that.
And, uh, I love this time of year. Um, we’re currently in January because it’s typically not a lot of delivery going on and I’m currently staring at a whole lot of documents I’m trying to write that I’ve been one day, I’m really enthusiastic about writing. Um, and the next day it’s, uh, yeah, it feels like a crippling task to.
Yeah, I think, uh, I think the biggest challenge in all that is just not getting stuck in your own head the whole time it’s, uh, having networks and, and I’ve got a few peer groups, um, that I use. One is a uh, more F uh, what would you call it? Just peer group of professionals who are all in different, um, types of, um, areas of expertise, but we meet every month.
And another one I’m in a formal coaching program with, um, run by lady of one of the leading speaker management bureau businesses in Australia and possibly the world. So she’s I guess bringing a lot of the market perspective to that conversation, because if you just sit at home and stay in your head, you might have the best ideas in the world that you’ll never sell it to anyone or you’ll find no one’s interested in it.
And then you’ll be wondering why. So yeah, it’s hard to get that balance, right. I think across all those different disciplines, what do you find?
[00:49:38] Brendon: Yeah, I like, like you have. Uh, a couple of groups that I’m connected into, or a couple of people that, you know, almost on speed dial and we, um, reciprocal type relationship around, where are you at at the moment? What are you doing at the moment? What are you struggling with at the moment? How can I support you? Because I think, or I know I miss team, I don’t, I don’t necessarily miss organizational culture, but I really miss team, uh, working in this way. So it’s around, how do I find that? And then. Yeah, I get similarly, but differently connection with professional bodies and, and understanding what’s happening in the marketplace and what are other coaches?
So the International Coaching Federation is the main one that I’m connected to. What is happening? What are people focused on? What are we finding? What are people enjoying? And similarly, you know, trying to spend January to rest up recharge. And then think about re and reflect on what is it that I’m going to achieve moving forward.
And what are some of the things I need to put in place to make those things come to fruition? Because as you say, the, an idea can rattle around in your head forever. And even if it’s the best idea in the world, it’s not going to do anything it’s around. Well have. Have a go. Um, and I, I like it comes out of a book called I think it’s Decisive by maybe Chip Heath, maybe Chip and Dan Heath this and make an intentional mistake.
So, you know, if you think there’s something that you want to do, Uh, just put it out there in, in sort of an as good enough form or, you know, I’m no good at networking go to a networking event, just see what happens. You know, that would be a mistake. I’m not good at writing, write something and put it out there and see what happens.
Uh, these, I’m trying to think about that way. So it’s just a, you know, it’s an intentional mistake. So if it does work, I can learn from it. But at least then there’s some progress happening. And things are moving forward, as opposed to, and you know, whether it’s good or not a good idea or not because in your head it can be both at the same time.
If you put it out there, people go, oh, that’s really good. I like that whole,
[00:52:04] Phil: it sounds like you, it’s forcing you to think about the thing you don’t like doing and pushing you in there. Yeah. I’ve recently modified my own Workday because I used to find. I’d start out by catching up on emails and social media, and then it’s 10:00 AM.
And, you know, I feel like I haven’t achieved anything yet in the day. Um, and I’m an early morning person. My thinking is crystal clear, first thing in the morning. So I’ve shifted all that stuff to 10:00 AM onwards and, uh, sort of 7:00 AM to 10:00 AM is tackling the things that matter. Cause it’s just so easy to, to go for the comfort zone.
Um, tasks and avoid the pointy poignant tasks that you know, will or help your business thrive. Yeah.
[00:52:53] Brendon: I’ve been using for a long time now using my calendar to block out time, to do those things, you know, prep for this, write that progress, this catch up on, um, as opposed to, you know, jumping straight into email and, you know, I’m yet to meet a human being that has as the first line on their role statement.
Clear your inbox, but that’s what we dive for. Right. Cause it’s easy. It’s comfortable. I’ve taken care of all those things. Yes. But what, what should you have been spending that time doing? Nice. I’ve got, uh, the seven questions here to close this out for today, Phil. So if you’ll indulge me with some short answers,
[00:53:33] Phil: I’ll give it a crack
[00:53:34] Brendon: on these, uh, on these seven, I would appreciate it.
Um, so the first one is what fulfills you?
[00:53:42] Phil: It’s a balance of physical and mental activity. I love running and, uh, you know, being able to do both running and work and thinking in the same day is fantastic. I love it.
[00:53:52] Brendon: And what frustrates you?
[00:53:55] Phil: What frustrates me is being vague about things. Um, when I hear experts or people talking about.
Topics that I love like purpose with no clarity about what we’re all talking about. That frustrates me. So I’m able to change that.
[00:54:13] Brendon: And if you could recommend one book that everyone should read, what would it be?
[00:54:18] Phil: Whew. That’s a tough one. Um, apart from my book clearly called connecting profit with purpose.
Um, apart from that, one of the, one of the books I’ve got a lot out of and keep thinking about referring back to is tribal leadership, which was put out about, uh, 10 years ago now, um, by the authors Logan, King and Fisher-Wright. But it actually goes through a, I guess, a whole lot of culture, examples of how, um, teams that see themselves taking on us as social challenge are often more successful, the ones that see themselves taking on competitors.
Okay. It brings some good data in around that.
[00:55:00] Brendon: What do you most admire in the people you work with?
[00:55:04] Phil: I think that diversity of views you get and you realize, you know, sometimes you think you’re pretty right, but diversity of views you got, wow. I never thought that way. So that peer group is great for getting that sort of perspective.
[00:55:18] Brendon: And what’s your favorite question?
[00:55:22] Phil: I have to say why as I, uh, as a purpose person. Yes.
[00:55:27] Brendon: If you didn’t do what you do, what would you do?.
[00:55:32] Phil: That’s a, that’s a really tough one in my situation. Um, but I do love working with food. I, uh, I’ve been at the top end, but taking what’s in the fridge and making something really good out of what’s left is, is, uh, I enjoy.
[00:55:48] Brendon: And if you could tell your younger self anything, what would it be?
[00:55:54] Phil: Yeah, get your act together and form a bigger world view, but younger that gets stuck in a corporate career for as long as I did. No, actually you probably wouldn’t be that it’d be more around. Um, just look around experience more while you’re in your career.
Don’t see yourself as being boxed into a very narrow pathway.
[00:56:15] Brendon: Yeah. Thanks Phil. There, the seven questions and.
Yeah, thanks for your insights across today as well. It’s been wonderful to chat with you about purpose and all things related to that.
[00:56:29] Phil: Excellent. Thanks for having me on. It’s been fun.