Jason Wong joins Brendon Le Lievre to discuss modern dads, our changing roles and associated implications, kind leadership, the importance of finding time for self, facilitating effectively online and how to coach people with similar experience.
About Jason
Jason Wong is a leadership coach, mentor and consultant with two decades of experience in senior executive and management roles across a range of industries, sectors and disciplines. Most of this experience has been in for-purpose and not-for-profit organisations; Jason is passionate about inspiring and leading people to realise their potential, so that they can optimise their positive impact in everything that they do.
Much of Jason’s career has focussed on technology leadership but more recently he has been working with leaders from all fields who are keen to make positive social & environmental change in their roles. He currently provides a range of services for Bambuddha (a social enterprise focussed on kind leadership), including programs design & management, group facilitation and coaching. Jason runs his own technology strategy and leadership consultancy, Tyger Technology Leadership – working with tech leaders to turbocharge their ‘soft’ skills.
Jason is also passionate about empowering Dads on their own Dad journeys and volunteers as an office bearer of an education advocacy body that supports P&C associations in northern Sydney.
You can connect with Jason through LinkedIN here – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonrwong/
Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon Le Lievre: Hello, and welcome to the Coach Conversations Podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. I am Brendan Le Lievre and today I’m joined by Jason Wong. How did you find coaching Jason? Or probably as it seems with most of us, how did it find you?
[00:00:22] Jason Wong: Hi Brendon. Thanks for having me, coaching, where did my coaching journey start? Maybe 10 years ago, I was working in technology leadership roles. And as a lot of people would be aware, technology leadership roles are quite diverse and varied.
There’s lots of things to do in there. I was finding, there were some bits, which I was definitely not enjoying as much as I used to. And so contemplated, changing careers a number of times, but then I was invariably pulled back because of my, my experience, my knowledge, and not wanting to, uh, waste that. Uh, I suppose it dwelled on me at some point that I was going around calling myself a technology manager, technology, leadership person, technology leader.
I found that I was much more, much more attuned to the management and the leadership side of my role than the technical stuff. So I did come from technical background. I started off on the help desk, you know, solving printer jams and word formatting issues back in the day. Uh, but I found that I was really energized by, uh, leading teams, uh, delivering, um, Uh, outcomes for people around the organization.
I, I did actually have a, my first career was actually in hospitality management and so I found that the customer service focus of, of that part of my career really helped me in my IT career. Cause I was able to differentiate myself as a very customer service and engaging IT leader, which at the time there weren’t really many, many, very many of us around.
Um, and so, yeah, as I got more senior roles in tech leadership, I, yeah, I found that what I, not only what I really enjoyed, but what I, what I ended up being pretty good at, you know, based on the feedback I was receiving from lots of people was, uh, motivating people and getting the best out of them. And they gave me a lot of joy.
And so when I back, uh, back in the, back in the summer of 2015, when I decided to quit my job as a director of IT and become a stay at home, dad, I, uh, did a bit of reflection thought about what can I do next, decided to go and get myself a coaching accreditation. Um, and that’s pretty much where the journey started.
And since then I’ve yeah, just slowly trying to define what sort of coach I want to be, what sort of coach I can be, but probably more importantly, what sort of coach is really needed out there. And that journey is still continuing, I think, um, going okay at the moment, but yeah, always looking to refine and, you know, improve and look for, um, more opportunity.
[00:03:34] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, lots of parallels in our story, which is, is interesting. Having found coaching, been a stay at home, dad, myself, quit the whatever regular job to, to be a stay-at-home dad, you know, some of the transition that needed to happen to step out of that role and into that new role is quite interesting.
I started on a help desk as well, but now if something goes wrong with the computer, I’m probably the last person you wanna ask about it cuz I have, I have very little experience now. You found the motivating and the building teams and the working with others was more of what attracted you than the technology stuff, or was there sort of a double interest in that those early roles?
[00:04:16] Jason Wong: Um, well, I, I left hospitality because I wanted something a bit more cerebral. If you like, if, uh, something where I could, you know, just think about things and have problems that I could work through methodically and sit at a desk and, um, you know, nut it out. And because I was growing up as a kid, I was an introvert and hospitality was real was pretty hard for me initially, cuz I was doing food and beverage sort of stuff. So working in restaurants and function centers and hotels and the first couple of years of that was quite uncomfortable for me. But then I got into the swing of it and uh, I guess came outta my shell.
And then, um, yeah, I, I think I was able to use that in my IT career, but the other, the other sort of fact that I suppose is I played a lot of team sports and also watched a lot of team sports and was always, always a big fan of the saying. A champion team will always beat the team of champions. And it just got me fascinated with how to get, how to build that champion team, I suppose, in any environment and that involved thinking about every component of that team and recognizing every, every component of that team, every person on that team is completely different. And in order to understand, um, how to get the, you know, get those people to reach their potential, had to listen to them and understand what motivated them and understand what environments did they like to work in, which environments did they not thrive in?
Um, yeah, those sort of things. And that whole process, I suppose, in my, in my management career was. What gave me the greatest satisfaction, I suppose cause it was all about people. It was all about seeing people realize their potential that’s something which I’ve always been well, I suppose, for as long as I can remember always been, I really like people succeeding. I really like people, um, exceeding expectations, you know, especially their own. And I suppose in a lot of ways, coaching was something which was naturally always gonna happen to me. And I definitely had a few people say that to me over the years. You know, why, why you to a mentor or something like that? I said, oh yeah, I probably should probably think about that.
Um, yeah. And, and I think that even the stay at home dad experience was, was, um, yeah, it was full on. I mean, as you know, I mean, it was, I still say it’s the hardest job that I’ve ever done, but at the same time, it was also the most rewarding. Um, just the, the skills that I learned in being a stay at home parent and, you know, with that becomes being, uh, upping the responsibilities from a domestic responsibilities as well.
And just, just the, the, um, the skill that you need to adapt and respond in an instant, um, The, the, the skill of accepting being, being comfortable with uncomfortableness, if you like, and recognizing that there are just, just some things that you’ve either just gotta let sit, you can’t solve it straight away.
And, and definitely coming to an IT background where my entire world was pretty much solving problems. That was definitely a bit of jump. Um, bit of, a bit of a change in mindset and head. But I do feel it definitely made me, made me a better person. Definitely. Um, better dad, better partner and ultimately a better leader.
And just that ability to relate to people a bit
[00:08:01] Brendon Le Lievre: more.
Yeah, I know my experience was, uh, a lot of what you’ve spoken about there, but it was sort of on the third day of being a stay-at-home dad, my wife had gone back to work, uh, and I, I rang her at lunchtime and all of a sudden, all those sort of 330-4 o’clock. When are you coming home type phone calls made a lot more sense to me as to why got made cause I was asking that question and.
Uh, wife’s like, oh, I’ve got a meeting. So I won’t be home until sort of 4 30, 5 o’clock what’s going on. And I’m like, this is way harder than I thought it was, uh, way different to what I thought it was gonna be. And, and her advice to me was, or you’ve been, you’ve been in the house for three days. Haven’t you and I, of course, isn’t you, nothing else that needs to be done.
We don’t need to go out. We’ve got stuff here. We’ve got, you know, things that we can do and food that we need to cook and dishes that need to be washed and, you know, games that need to be played and toys that need all of that stuff in there and naps that need to be had at that stage cuz he, my eldest was quite young and she’s like, you just gotta get outta the house.
You, you gotta go for a walk. You’ve gotta, um, you know, if you stay inside those four walls, you’ll find that really challenging. So I’m pleased it was made clear to me after only three days cuz we did, we went to the shops and had a bit of a walk around and much better for it. But yeah, three days in.
[00:09:29] Jason Wong: It’s definitely something which I really wish more dads would do. And, and they are like, I mean, they’re definitely more stay at home dads and definitely a lot more dads that are a lot more involved and present in their kids activities than ever. Because like I said earlier, it was, it was just really rewarding, you know?
Um, look, I definitely had a few mates that just thought I was sitting at home watching daytime television all day. And, um, I remember at one at one point to help me keep track of feeding times for my newborn and infant. I was recording everything in one note, I was recording what times she ate and what she was eating.
Um, but I was also recording nap times, you know, how long she was sleeping for what time she went to sleep. Um, cuz you know, that would, that would help me manage, oh, hang on. She just woke up, you know, one hour ago. So. Can’t be, yeah. When you’re trying to work out the different cries, um, you can’t be tired, it must be something else.
But then what I found myself doing was I end up writing down everything I did that day for. So I kept this log over probably did it for at least a good six, maybe more nine months. And when I look back at that and just have a look at the amount of things that you have to do at home, cause I had my newborn, I had a, a toddler at the time and I also had a primary school kid as well.
Um, And yeah, I, I, you it’s, it’s I look back on it with a lot of pride really, and just thinking far out and I was able to do that for the most part, not lose it, you know, there were definitely days early on and, you know, as like most things, if you, if you, um, do it for long enough, you know, you work out, you know, systems and routines and little tweaks here and there.
You get good and comfortable with it. Um, Yeah, no, it was, it was, it was good. And, and, you know, and the, and the great thing was I was as busy if not more busy than when I was working in my full-time role, but I was spending time with, you know, the most important people in my life all day, every day. Uh, most days obviously I took, you know, timeouts every now and then, but it was, yeah, it was great.
[00:11:50] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, I, I didn’t have quite that technical solution. I had a whiteboard with a daily log, so mine’s all been wiped off, but yeah, I, I, we had the same sort of thing. My wife would come home and she’d go, well, what did you do today? And I was able to sort of go, well, let’s go back to the whiteboard and, and sort of debrief the day off the whiteboard as sort of the log.
Uh, because it does help, you know, it’s a technique you’d use in the office, so why wouldn’t you use it at home around, okay, well, I’ve done this and I’ve done that, and this is what we’ve done, and this is the mix and what have you, uh, cuz I’m not great at retaining that level of information. Cause it it’s just write it down and then it’s written down and a way it goes.
So that was, that was the solution we had. But I, I did definitely notice that the vast majority of the skills that I’d built in the workplace to that point. Did not work, uh, as well, or, um, as efficiently or as effectively in the home environment. And there was a lot of, you know, discovery of self that happened as I would, you know, transition from being public servant to stay at home dad. How, how did you find that changing in those roles or to those new roles?
[00:13:03] Jason Wong: Um, look, it, it was, there was a bit of a learning curve, but I did, I did enjoy it. You know, I, I did enjoy. For those reasons that I said that I was, I was with my kid, I was seeing, I was seeing every single moment. You know, I, I think there was a little bit of little bit of envy for my wife sometimes because I would, you know, tell her about, oh, you know, this is what Lucy did today.
And you know, the first time that she’d done and this is, B’s done this as well. And, um, you know, in a lot of ways, it helped me with my own personal development, my own personal growth in terms of trying to work out. Who I wanted to be and what, what my, you know, looking for direction, a bit of purpose in my life, I suppose.
Um, I didn’t really look, I, I, I left my last role with, um, under quite a bit of stress and anxiety. And so I definitely wasn’t missing that, um, to the point where. I haven’t worked full-time job since so I’m, I’m not craving to go back. And I, and I quite look, I quite like the consultant coaching, um, experience at the moment because of all that flexibility.
And I’m still able to go to my kids events pretty easily. There’s like, I’ve just, haven’t missed, uh, anything major that’s happened with my kids for a long time now, but there’s also that, um, Balancing where does money come from? So one of the things that has definitely been a big change is that I’ve had to adjust to living with a lot less income.
And initially it was, well, probably still is arguably a little bit of a social experiment just to see how much money do we actually really need to have a happy life. And, um, we’re doing pretty well, quite frankly. I mean, you know, there there’s some things that we’ve had to, we’ve had to sacrifice, you know, so we’re not going on the fancy holidays anymore and probably need to get a better car, but they’re not things that bother us on a day to day basis every now and then it will come up.
Oh, you haven’t been overseas in a while? Oh no, there was COVID as well was
[00:15:14] Brendon Le Lievre: Mmm.
[00:15:17] Jason Wong: so yeah, that’s, it’s been, look, it’s definitely been a journey of self-discovery for me in what started off of look I really need just a bit of a change in my life. Um, and I think, look because my wife was stay at home parent before that.
So we swapped roles, essentially. She went back to work fulltime, um, and I stay home dad. Since then we’ve we’ve, you know, each come back, we’re both working part-time now we both, you know, try to spend even time with the kids, although I’m, I’m probably still doing a little bit more of that. Um, mainly cause I’ve got a more flexible role as well.
But, yeah, I like, I like what’s going on at the moment with, uh, with this, um, with flexibility that I’ve got in my life and seeing my kids grow up and seeing, you know, not have got a really good relationship with all three of them. And yeah, I, I couldn’t imagine me going back to full time job anytime soon.
No matter how much you pay me.
[00:16:22] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, no, I’ve heard similar from other dads as well as a result of COVID and, um, You know, working from home more. They’re like, actually, there’s, there’s a lot of stuff here that I, I want to get more connected with or more involved in. And so they’re having or having that conversation. And I’ve, I’ve the, you know, been encouraging dads that I talk to around, uh, go and ask, like, don’t, don’t assume that your workplace won’t give you leave or won’t let you be part-time or what have you, um, go and ask and find out for sure.
And you’ll be surprised what’s made available to you when you go and ask is kind of my experience of it. Noting that it’s still somewhat of a difficult conversation at times. And, um, you know, that creates other opportunities like you’ve shared for other, other things to happen in the household, which I think is great.
[00:17:17] Jason Wong: Yeah, that’s a really good point about, about the asking. Cause a lot of the dads that I speak to it is quite mixed. It definitely is getting. Um, getting a lot more acceptable and even there’s some organizations that just assume it’s a given. Oh, okay. You you’ve just become a new dad. Okay. Well how much leave you want?
Um, and even just the simple thing is, oh, look, I’ve gotta leave work early. I can’t go this meeting this afternoon, cause I’ve gotta go pick up the kids from school, you know? Um, you know, previously, you know, your, your boss would usually just look at what isn’t, what’s your wife doing? Isn’t what she’s supposed to do it. Um, whereas thankfully that’s, I don’t wanna say no longer the case, but it’s, um, a lot, lot rare these days where, when men feel the pressure from their employers, um, to, you know, now you’ve gotta stay at work. What do you mean you’re putting your family in front of work? What are talking about?
Although what I actually think that one of the main, or at least an obstacle is happening a little bit more is men themselves, you know, us, you know, because there is still a little bit of a stigma around, you know, sacrificing your career and your, your success and your wealth generation. To just hang out with the kids or spend some time with the kids. I mean, unless it’s for a very specific purpose. So, you know, my, my kids running for the state championships, athletics carnival. Okay, that’s a good excuse, but you know, ohmy kid’s just feeling a bit down. I’d like to stay at home with him today. That’s like, oh, okay. What? Can’t get a babysitter or chuck her into daycare or something.
This sort of hit home to me a few years ago. Um, when I was, I was chatting to a guy who was about to get up I was, I was at this small conference and there was a guy that was about to get up and talk about, uh, a career in sales, you know, and he was a, maybe still is he was a senior regional business development person for a pretty well known IT company who I will not name. And, or just having a chat before he went on stage, he’d just become a new dad.
And, you know, I was giving him, you know, my story, how, and this is, I think at the stage when I was, I’d probably been a stay-at-home dad for about 18 months or two years. And I was just trying to come out of it a little bit and try and get, you know, start generating some, some work and income and I told him what my experience was very much like I just told you just then that was really positive. You know, really, you know, opened my eyes about a whole lot of things. And, and he was, he was really engaged. He was smiling. He was a new dad. I think his, his kid was probably about three months old or something. And, and I think the comment he made to me was look, that’s, that’s fantastic.
Well, you know, I, yeah, I’d really, I’d really like to be that engaged and all with my kids as well. I’m really excited. Love, love my little fella, you know, he’s my whole world at the moment. But tell me, um, how are you handling the detrimental impact on your masculinity? And so, and so, and so that was, that was not what I expect, but he, he wasn’t being, um, he wasn’t, he wasn’t being mean, or he was legitimately asking cause I think that was something was ticking over in his head that like, I would like to do that, but. I don’t know, I can, I’m only second guessing here that I look, you know, my mates, you know, what are he doing? You know, being a house husband and he should be working and making lots of money and further, you can’t jeopardize your career by, you know, looking after babies.
That’s I do get, I have got comment, uh, uh, over the years of, you know, along the lines of that’s women’s work, you know, thankfully that’s few and far between now. It’s still, there’s still that little bit of a stigma around. Um, yes. I’d love to be able to spend more time with my kids, but I’ve got work commitments and then the whole, I mean, if you go on the layers underneath that, well, what does that actually mean?
What, what, what are your work commitments? You know, what, what would happen if you went to your work and said, can I start working some flexible working hours now where, you know, I can probably do some hours late at night when the kids were asleep, for example, or, you know, or I can. Um, you know, do things early in the morning and, and so on.
So look, it is, it is an interesting space and I think it’s, it’s a challenge for, you know, a lot of, lot of dads that are a lot of men are trying to be better dads. Um, but yeah, I agree. I think it would be worth, definitely asking the question and hopefully be pleasantly surprised at the response that can get,
[00:22:11] Brendon Le Lievre: Mm.
[00:22:12] Jason Wong: cause you know chances are person you’re talking to his parent as well, completely understands. And what it’s all about.
[00:22:21] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, I I’d met a stay at home dad. We went out to dinner with some of my wife’s colleagues before we had kids and I, you know, sort of working around the table. Hi, um, you know, such and such, I do such and such type thing conversations and got to this guy. And it was like, what do you do? And he’s like, I’m a stay at home dad.
And I said, genuinely to him, that sounds like the best job in the world. And I think he thought I was taking the Mickey and being cheeky about it. And I was like, no, I’m I don’t have kids yet. Um, but that sounds great. You know, how did you get there? And, and how did you decide as a family unit that that’s what you were gonna do and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And, and then he sort of softened a bit, but I think he’d kind of been used to people having a crack at him for being a stay at home dad, which is it’s a challenge. I mean, even when you just go to do the grocery shopping he’s oh, it’s daddy daycare, or you babysitting and I’m like, no, I’m parenting, this is parenting.
Um, so yeah, there’s lots of just little subtle things that men bump into and I know a lot of it, there is a lot of, um, Societal values that and generational stuff that we tend to carry around. You know, you are the man, your, your job is to put food on the table and you know, really when you explore it, it’s like, well, that’s no longer true and it doesn’t have to be true anymore.
And if you want to be there, you know, for the not mundane, but the more regular moments opposed to, oh, they’re running for state, you know, championships or they’re performing in a, you know, musical thing or whatever. I better drop in on that and I can drop in on that bit and then get back to what I’m meant to be doing in inverted commerce. the, there’s a lot that you, that I think that dads are missing. And I think more dads are finding that, um, because they’ve been around a bit more because work’s all been happening around it a bit around family, a bit more, which has got pros and cons. So yeah, I would, I would say, go and ask and see what the answer is.
Definitely.
[00:24:21] Jason Wong: Just just made me think of another quick story. I, I mentioned to you previously that I, um, set up a little dads group, the suburb that I used to live in, and I remember there was, um, One of the dad we’ve met quite a few times and one of the dads had invited another dad who come along and, um, you know, he came to first meeting, introduced himself, you know, soon after I think we asked him, you know, so what do you do, obviously, you know, he obviously spending a lot of time with the kids and, um, you, it interesting that he, he opened with, oh, I’m a software developer and, uh, okay that’s interesting. And, um, but. Then, um, he, we had a really, really good chat, really good guy. He’s still part of the group now by the second meeting, he sort of fessed up and, um, said, you know, I haven’t really done software development for about three years. pretty much been stay at home dad that whole time.
But, you know, I just felt the pressure of being surrounded by a bunch of blokes. I thought they were gonna judge me on, you know, What’s your, what’s your cred? What’s your street cred in terms of work experience and seniority and influence and power and success. I thought I’d better, better, not completely lie and make something up, but say something that I used to do.
Uh, but yeah, but obviously, you know, he was comfortable enough to reveal that, that second session and yeah, since then he’s been very, very proudly, you know, stay at home dad and I went back and visited the group the other day, actually couple of weeks ago, I’d been out of it for about, hadn’t seen him for that a year and checked in on him.
How you going? Yep. Still stay at home dad, you know, loving it. Why would I do anything else? You know,
[00:26:07] Brendon Le Lievre: Awesome.
[00:26:08] Jason Wong: doing okay financially. Um, so yeah. Great, if more dads could, I don’t know, swing that balance a little bit more that way. Um, you know, if they can,
[00:26:26] Brendon Le Lievre: And you, it sounds like there’s some coaching you’re doing in that space. You mentioned earlier around how do I, what sort of coach do I wanna be? Or where is my coaching needed? What sort of areas are you coaching in at the moment, Jason?
[00:26:41] Jason Wong: so I’m coaching primarily in two areas, I’m primarily coaching tech leaders. Um, Mainly, and, and that’s, that’s sort of, you know, there’s a little bit of mentoring in there as well because that’s leveraging off my experience as a, you know, senior, senior IT exec, um, so that’s, again, going back to that point, I made earlier about how look I’ve got a lot of knowledge in that area, I’ve had a lot of success in, you know, delivering projects and systems and managing technical teams. um, you know, I’m, I’m glad I’m still able to put that to some use, although I’m, I’m definitely, as I’m doing more of it, I am like, I feel like I’m doing a lot more coaching than mentoring, so, which is essentially, you know, just giving a lot less direct advice, you know, and more encouraging the people that I’m coaching.
And that was interesting. cAuse with tech leaders, I think they, they come in thinking coaching and mentoring is the same. And hoping that, okay, well, Jason’s got all this experience here. Hopefully I can tap into that and find out what he did in this situation. Cause I’ve got that situation now and hopefully I can, you know, you know, do, do something like that, you know, like he did, but, um, yeah, I’m doing, doing a lot more of just encourage them to think about their situation.
I, I might tell stories or, you know, relate experiences of things that might have worked for me, but you know, being very clear that my environment, very different was very different to what you are experiencing now. Here’s just some thought, like, I’m not telling you to do this, you know? Um, um, but if there’s anything, what I’ve just said, which might help you reach some solution or, you know, overcome the challenge that you’re facing or, well, that’s awesome. But yeah, definitely more of that. The other area that I’m working in is kind leadership coaching, which is obviously where we met Brendan for this great organization called Bambuddha group, which is essentially a leadership services organization with an unashamed emphasis on kindness.
So. I think it’s, um, I suppose kind leadership is very much about it’s about recognizing the positive impact that you can have in everything around you. I suppose one way to describe it is we have some at Bambuddha, we have some targeted at, uh, businesses where we take them through a program of kind leadership.
Which involve all the coaching, a lot of workshop facilitation, but it also involves some subject matter experts coming in and talking about some aspect of kind leadership. And we developed this kindness curriculum around these five pillars, and I’ll just rattle them off now to, to just frame it a little bit.
So there’s kindness to people, to your customers, kindness to your community, kindness to the environment and kindness to yourself. And so these things, um, you know, sort of pervay, um, or, or underpin everything that we do in this space. So we’re not necessarily, um, sitting there, you know, telling people you need to be nicer and, you know, stop being mean and selfish.
It’s, it’s more about trying to understand the impact that you having on everything around you, all those things that I said, the people, customers, the community, the environment, um, and in particular yourself, you know, being kind for yourself, um, and trying to ensure as much as possible to make sure that that impact is positive.
You know, because we, we did a bit of, um, reflection last year as an organization about, you know, what is kind leadership, you know? And we, we spoke to a few people and we, we even had some had some interns from university, come in, try and try and talk to us about it. And, um, it’s sort of landed on something relatively simple.
You know, kindness is really the art of just making everything better. you know, um, and, and I suppose the, when I think about my experience of being a stay at home dad, uh, being more engaged, uh, parent and more engaged husband, I think it’s the empathy that I’ve developed in those sort of roles that has helped me with my, with my kind leadership coaching cause, um, something it enables me to be more present for the people that I’m coaching, um, enabled me to be genuinely curious about what’s going on in their world.
And that’s, that’s definitely helping with the sort of, I suppose, the questions that I’m asking my counterpart, my coachees. Um, yeah. Okay. I forgot. What question was, did I answer it?
[00:31:45] Brendon Le Lievre: Uh, what sort of coaching do you do? So, you know, and remember, yeah. that happens in coaching too. Oh, did I answer the question? I’m like, you get to determine whether you’ve answered it or not. That’s
[00:31:57] Jason Wong: I answered something.
[00:31:58] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, no, I think that’s, that’s good. And it’s my second year, um, being a Bambuddha kindness coach, it’s such a great organisation. You know, counterparts to work with and interesting work that they’re doing. And, you know, as a result I’ve been asking, you know, hear people, tell those sort of stories and it’s like, what I’ve been asking more about. What, what would a kind approach look like? Or what, how could you be kinder to yourself or, or what would you, uh, if a good friend, I really like that question came to you and was sharing this problem with you. How could you encourage them to, to be kinder to themselves and, and real light bulbs go on for people around. Oh yeah. I am being a bit mean to myself or I am being a bit harsh on myself or not recognizing the great things.
I like that. Uh, the art of making everything better as a definition. That’s and I like that. It’s an art, not a science as well. Cause I
[00:32:50] Jason Wong: Well, well, the kindest to self pillarwas the last. Which was formalized. There were only four pillars before because in some ways the kindness to self was assumed to be in there. But obviously as a result of the last few years of, you know, the things that have gone on in the world, um, there definitely needs to be a focus and recognition that it’s pretty much the most important pillar.
If you don’t have that kindness to self, um, It’s very hard to do that for, you know, across those other pillars and worked with quite a few not-for-profit and for purpose organizations, and typically find that people in those organizations really selfless, really focus have really external focus on helping other people.
But the cost of that is usually themselves. They just burn out, you know, they’ve lost their sense of identity. They. Because they’re so busy, um, working towards making everything better for everyone else. They forgot that. Well, you are, you are there at the heart of it. And are you taking time out? Are you taking time to, you know, to find your third space as, as Adam Fraser would say, um, and. Look, it’s definitely something which I learned to do probably late in, late in my career. Um, mainly as, and I think I was doing it, not knowing, definitely not knowing what was called the third space, but not doing it intentionally. Um, um, at first it was more just for me. I needed to, I needed to change things in the way it was going on in my work work environment every day was just.
I would definitely the sort of person that was eating lunch at his desk. Um, you know, there, there were, there were times where I didn’t even have time to go to the toilet. I would literally sit entire days meeting to meeting, you know, project to project. And, you know, by the end of the day, I was, well, I was busting, I obviously busting and I’m thinking this, this is no good I need, I need to be able to find time just to go toilet. And so, um, and so I started, I started doing something as simple as for lunch, I would leave. I would go offsite and often on my own, but often just from someone else. And it was just to get my, get my head into a different space. I wouldn’t think about if I went to lunch with someone else, I would respectfully ask them, can we not talk about work? Talk about anything else, you know, holidays, family, you know, what are you doing this weekend? What are you watching on TV? Um, and so, yeah, so that, that finding that time for myself. And, and so what had happened is I’d go back after lunch and just be significantly more productive. You know, I was, I got that time to reset and refresh and, you know, do a bit of reflection and, and yeah.
And I, and I was able to, you know, just not, not leave work for the day as anxious as I used to be. Um, yeah. And, and when I’m coaching people now yeah I’m still finding a lot of people that that’s like, oh yeah. That’s yeah. I’ve gotta make time for myself. Yeah. I’ve been meaning to do that for the last five years, you know, and it’s, um, and it is, you know, easier said than done.
So if you can, my, my advice, you know, as much as I give advice in these sessions is just to start, start small. It doesn’t have to be carve out two hours, see if you can get the right meditation music and pick the perfect beach to walk along with the perfect weather. It might just be when you walking in between meeting.
Take the scenic route, you know, look, go down a different corridor, look at different people and just switch off just even for five minutes, you know, that, that, you know, usually just gets in the right direction.
[00:36:56] Brendon Le Lievre: Mm, you know, I’m a big advocate of the take lunch, particularly for leaders, because if they don’t take lunch, people notice that then they go oh if they’re busy. I, I want to be supportive of them or I want to help them or I wanna be, be them. So maybe I shouldn’t take lunch. And then before, you know, it half the organization isn’t taking lunch, which isn’t good.
Like we’re not at our best when we’ve spent eight hours sort of strapped to a keyboard or, or bouncing between meetings. Um, and usually it results in a 3:00 PM raid on the chocolates and the chips and the soft drinks and the what have you to get us through to 5:00 PM. So the social club Christmas party’s not as good if people are taking lunch and getting outta the office, but I think that’s a fair trade
I’m happy with that.
[00:37:44] Jason Wong: But, yeah, but going, going to that point, you made about, um, concentration span. I remember when we went to uni, I think lectures were deliberately 50 minutes long because they knew that once you sort of get to about that point, people just start losing concentration. So even if you had a double lecture, it would usually be a five minute break in.
So every now and then I, you know, I’ll go to a presentation or a workshop and we are just churning through three hours, you know, nothing. And I, and I’m yeah, I’m sort of, you know, trying to drop hints to the facilitator sort of noticing that everyone is either completely disengaged or fallen asleep. So can we have a break please?
[00:38:24] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, I think particularly online, I run a couple of workshops online. Well, more than a couple, but I’ve run workshops online and about an hour in, you start to lose people. And so about 50 minutes probably. And I’m like, let’s take a break now and people are like, no, I’m good then push on, I don’t need a break.
And I say, no, go. And you probably think it’ll be too early and too long. And that you can work through it, I’m gonna ask you to walk away from your screen. The email will be there when we finish, because this afternoon, particularly when they’re all day online workshops, which can be challenging. You will be completely burnt out and not able to get any of the value from the time that we have together. So go now go early, go for longer than you think, go away from your screen and then come back and been really strong on that and people reflect in the afternoon. They’re like, yeah, it was really good to have those breaks earlier on.
Thank you for sort of mandating them because yeah,
[00:39:27] Jason Wong: No, you’re right in, in the online environment, you have to, you have to have someone, mandating it, because in, in the face to face environment, if you’re the facilitator and you, you hadn’t thought about mandating, but you usually get the message when about six people get up and just go toilet or something at the same time.
And then you, but whereas on Zoom or Teams, Might someone might just turn their video off,
[00:39:49] Brendon Le Lievre: Hmm.
[00:39:49] Jason Wong: and then another, and you don’t know what that means. It might be, oh, I don’t know. Maybe they’re adjusting their hair or something, or maybe they need to sneeze. I dunno.
[00:39:57] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah.
[00:39:59] Jason Wong: But, um, no, that’s, that’s, that’s a good point.
You know, having to ensure the facilitating, you just know we we’ve reached, we’ve reached that magical point where we all need a break, including myself. So make yourself a cuppa, go the toilet, if you need to stretch your legs.
[00:40:21] Brendon Le Lievre: Get outside. If you can. That’s always a good one. Just go and stand in the middle of your backyard for five minutes.
[00:40:26] Jason Wong: yeah, yeah.
[00:40:29] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah. Uh, and you’ve mentioned that you coach in an area used to have expertise in which I think is a real challenge. I often do my best coaching when I have no idea what the person who’s talking about.
How do you fight that desire to tell and desire to give advice? And to, and to stay curious in particular, when you’re working with tech leaders who are probably, as you say, expecting you to solve their problems for them, isn’t that what I’m paying you for? You solve those problems. How
[00:40:57] Jason Wong: Look, it, it is, it is a, yeah, you’re right. It’s it is a little bit of a dance. And look, I, I try to put myself in their shoes and, and look, I know that even before I went and did my coaching accreditation, that I conflated coaching and mentoring. And I remember, I think after I did my, my first day of my coaching accreditation course, and one of the key messages that day was, you know, it was coaching 1 0 1.
So it was, we don’t give advice. It’s just a series of questions and I’m like, and I’m, I was legitimately thinking what? So if someone’s engaged me to be their coach, um, and all I’m doing, you know, because of my experience and expertise of my knowledge and, um, and, and qualifications, and I’m just sitting there asking them questions, I’m going to get punched in the face at the end of it.
Like, you know, really um, it was and look, and I’ve definitely. I suppose one of the things is make that very clear from the outset that I’m not giving you advice. Um, I will, I will tell you a little bit about some of my experiences, um, to give you some food for thought, but this is all about you trying to, you know, us trying to work out collaboratively and you know me to help you really come up with solutions.
But in terms of finding my own, look, it is, there’s almost like there’s a little voice in my head, which is becoming a lot more attuned now to say, oh no, no, no, hang on. I think you’re going down the advice path here, and I will start sentences where, where it’s gonna go and I’ll sounds like a bit of advice.
And then I’ll, then I’ll correct myself and steer it, steer it in another direction. Um, I think what helps with tech and, and we touched on this before we started recording Brendon is that it’s tech management tech now is very D. To the way that I used to say, you don’t want to take my advice on, you know, on how we used to, um, administer Windows 95 and, um, and Microsoft office before 365 existed, you know, that’s, that’s very different now.
Um, So, but yeah, it, it is definitely a bit of a challenge, but, but it, but even, even in the, even in the non-tech stuff, you know, I’m coaching leaders now and I’ve had senior executive experience and some of their problems are exactly the same challenges that I had. Some of them, I overcame some of them, I failed miserably at, you know, it is.
Yeah. You do have to remind yourself that I suppose it’s very much. It’s almost like you’re, you’re coaching, coaching yourself in your mind. Like you take you back, take yourself back to that situation. What, what would’ve helped me back then in that situation? What, what perspectives didn’t I look at that I should have and yeah.
And I find myself doing that a little bit, I guess. Um, yeah, but, but definitely hold holding that space for the, for the coachee. I. I well, definitely when, you know, when I, when I first started coaching, it was hard to be comfortable with that silence. It was cause I, or if there was a break of more than about two seconds, it was like, oh no, one’s talking better be me. I better say something. Um, holding that space and I guess sending the message to the person I’m coaching. I’m not talking it’s you, you are the one that needs to say something now.
[00:44:42] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah. And I find that when I’m being coached as well, when we hit that point, that my reflections are I don’t actually want the person coaching to talk, cause I’m thinking and I’m working through what it is that I’m doing. And so I recognize that more when I’m coaching now is I’m feeling it’s quiet for too long. I’m feeling that it’s uncomfortable and yet the value is being generated from the, from the process cuz the person who’s accessing that new thinking. So my job is to be quiet, even if it is a little uncomfortable for me. Cause it is most likely not for them. And if it is uncomfortable for them, then it’s uncomfortable for them.
They, they need to work through that or, or, or reflect on what’s happening for them. Cause there’s meant there’s value that is being generated in that space. There’s insights that come from that space. But I have had a few engagement particularly early on where people showed up and I probably wasn’t as clear about splitting coaching and mentoring and, and they showed up expecting mentoring and, and they would, you know, respond with, thank you for the session, found it really valuable, not quite what I’m looking for when I was working with another organization in particular, you know, can I work with a different coach?
Would they’d sort of ask that and I’d say, yeah, that’s fine. Like, I don’t want, I’m not connecting with everyone. Or expecting to connect with everyone. I’m fine for you to try another coach. And then they’d try another coach and I’d check in, you know, with the organization, how did that second session go?
Was there something I can learn to be a better coach myself from that? And, and they’d say, oh, they ended up not continuing with that coach either. They had one session and they sort of stepped out it’s so it’s like, oh, they want, they wanted something different. They wanted some mentoring. They wanted to just be told and mentoring has a place that’s very, very valuable uh, in many circumstances, but I think sometimes it’s nice to just sit in the uncomfortableness and do some coaching and, and get those insights. And so, and I always find I’m more motivated to achieve stuff when I’ve come up with it as well. It sounds like a much better idea when it’s my idea, as opposed to just being told you should go and do this, Brendon.
[00:46:57] Jason Wong: Yeah, no, no, definitely. Um, think, you know, and, and coaching people that also have a mentor, you know, that’s, that’s fine as well. You know, their mentor plays, you know, a pretty different role, what I’m trying to do for them. And, and look, I’ve had, I’ve had clients where they’re almost expecting me to be a consultant as well, you know, so I need to do. Um, and, and this is where it does get a little bit hard with, with my tech leaders. So for example, I need to develop a IT strategy
[00:47:34] Brendon Le Lievre: Mm
[00:47:34] Jason Wong: Or a strategic document or a disaster covering plan or something. You don’t want them. Yeah. I have done a few, you know, can you shoot me through a copy so, well, they’re not really.
[00:47:45] Brendon Le Lievre: you used on that? that’s not what I’m here for. I could do that work. I might choose not to do that work, but I can do that work, but I it’s a different charging, you know, involvement to be picking that up.
[00:47:58] Jason Wong: exactly.
[00:48:00] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, different type of engagement. And, you know, I, I, I get similar in HR cause that’s my background, uh, as well as it, but my it’s way too old for people to ask me that.
But they’ll ask me about HR stuff and I think I don’t wanna write the policy. I don’t wanna write the documentation anymore. I’ve done that. Let’s check in with, what’s stopping you from why, why aren’t you asking one of your team or why, why aren’t you developing the capability or why aren’t you comfortable to put the pen on the paper, if that’s your role and make that happen or your hands on the keyboard?
[00:48:34] Jason Wong: Yeah, I, I do find though that almost every single person who, even though they may have started the engagement with the, with a pretty different idea of what they were getting. Once you explain it to them. Um, they’re usually pretty okay with it. You know, they’re, there’s a little bit of a, oh, oh, okay. I thought you were gonna help me write this strategic marketing document.
Oh no. Okay. Oh, you’re gonna get me to do it. Oh, alright. Um, yeah, I’m up for that. Let’s see. Let’s see where that goes.
[00:49:07] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, I like it when it clicks. So you get the, oh, that’s interesting, or that’s, I hadn’t thought of that, or that sounds different out loud or, or one of those moments. And I’m like that, that’s what we’re trying to get to with coaching. So that’s the distilled value that I’m trying to create across our sessions, rather than me just telling you what to do and people go. Keep doing that. That’s good. I want that. So, all right, we’ll do that. then the pressure’s on to make that happen.
[00:49:36] Jason Wong: No. And I think, look, when, when you, in preparation for this interview, um, just thinking about what my achievements were in coaching, you know, it was, it was pretty much what you just said then, you know, when you get that little bit of feedback, um, where it’s, where the message is coming in loud and clear that this session’s helping them.
I’ve definitely had some sessions where I’m just thinking, oh, I’m getting nothing here. I don’t know whether she’s here because she’s, you knows cause her manager’s paying for these coaching sessions. She, um, uh, but yeah, but when, when you get those, those little nuggets from them, cause they’ve had, they’ve had a light bulb moment, you know?
Oh, you hadn’t thought it that way or, or they’ll follow on from something you said, oh actually, yeah. That means that remind you, maybe I should do this as well. Yeah. Oh no, thank you for that. Oh, um, and yeah, that’s, that’s what, that’s what I love about coaching, you know, and it, and it, I think that’s all tied in with the, you know, the empathy that I’ve developed, you know, as I’ve matured and, and that genuine curiosity to, to see people exceed and reach their potential. That’s that’s, that’s so nice. You, you, you end, you walk out of those or you virtually walk out of those sessions really invigorated and, um, yeah. And think, you know, well, this is, this is why I do it.
[00:51:17] Brendon Le Lievre: Hmm,
[00:51:18] Jason Wong: I’m gonna keep doing it.
[00:51:20] Brendon Le Lievre: those situations always intrigue me. I’m get like my reflection. I’m not getting much here and I’m not sure they are either. And then you get towards the end of the session. It’s like, oh, I got heaps outta today. Thanks. That was great. When can we have our next session? Let’s get it in the calendar now.
And they’re really driving it and pushing it and I’m thinking, okay, well, what, what did, what did you get? What, what was it that was valuable? And those can be really insightful as well around. Okay, again, Brendon check your own assumptions around what value is and what people should be taking from their coaching session.
You know, people will get value and it’s not around. It’s not always the value that you think it’s gonna be. So that’s a good reminder for me. Thank you.
[00:52:03] Jason Wong: I think, look, you reflect back on definitely my early, early coaching engagements. And I was, I was very hung up on making sure that I’d adhere to a framework or a methodology, or was able to quote, um, subject matter experts just cause I’ve, you know, I’ve been coach and I’ve I’ve of, you know, listened to speakers and I’ve personally been really impressed with it said, oh, well you sounds like you’ve gotta delve into Tuckman stages of team development. You know, Bruce Tuckman, psychologists, you know, gained fame in 1965 and yeah, and I think far I’ve gotta, how do I remember all these sort of things and. um, I think obviously still trying to build my knowledge base in those areas, but not getting as flustered anymore and not being able to quote the exact detail of who they were, um, and leaning a lot more on my coaching experience and, and my senior management experience as well as still being able to provide quite a bit of value.
I mean, I think there’s definitely some some coachees would, you know, would be a little bit more impressed if you able to quote, you know, um, academics and point the direction of white papers. But most of them wouldn’t really have the time to read it, you know? So maybe send them a TED talk, sending them a TED talk is usually pretty good.
[00:53:25] Brendon Le Lievre: 18 minutes of, of.
[00:53:27] Jason Wong: but yeah, they definitely appreciate. You know, I suppose they’re holding the space for them and I, them to think and reflect and, and, um, and speak because usually it’s because, because they’re so busy all, all day, every day, they’re in transaction mode, you know, one of the great, this is one of the things I tell my coachees as well. It’s really great you just carve out in this one hour for this fortnight or month, depending on the frequency. Because chances are, you probably would just practice with another meeting or another, or another set of emails or, you know, something else you had to do. Um, and that’s, yeah, that’s a really good start in the right direction.
[00:54:04] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, nice. Let’s rattle off the, uh, seven questions to bring us to a close today. Jason. So just whatever’s front of mind, just, uh, short answers and we’ll see where we land. So the first question is what fulfills you
[00:54:22] Jason Wong: My family
[00:54:24] Brendon Le Lievre: and what frustrates you?
[00:54:30] Jason Wong: Um, probably the lack of kindness that I see every day in different situations. Um, situations where a decision could have been made in a more positive way and it wasn’t. That’s probably my little bug bear for things.
[00:54:47] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah. If you could recommend one book that everyone should read, what’s the book.
[00:54:54] Jason Wong: Um, okay. This is probably completely off topic, but it’s the first thing that came to mind. Probably Dark emu by Bruce Pasco. Um, very good book about, uh, history of indigenous society before colonization. Um, yeah, that’s a, that’s a good read.
[00:55:14] Brendon Le Lievre: Thank you. What do you most admire in your counterparts?
[00:55:22] Jason Wong: Um, their, their willingness to self-improve, you know, the fact that they’ve committed to this and they continue to turn up and sometimes they are uncomfortable and sometimes, um, they don’t really know what they do in there, but there there’s something in them, which, which is driving them to be a slightly better version of themselves than before.
And that’s, that’s great. You know, I’d love seeing people wanting to improve themselves.
[00:55:53] Brendon Le Lievre: What’s your favorite coaching question?
[00:55:59] Jason Wong: My favorite coaching question. Hmm. Okay. Um, it’s probably usually around. Depends obviously on the context, but often around what does, what does person X, what would person X say about this situation? So depending on what it is, whether it’s like, um, a peer manager, you know, their manager, their partner, you know, if it’s, if it’s issue they’re having with, um, self belief, Getting them to think a little bit more about the people that know them quite well, just for a different perspective when they think about.
[00:56:46] Brendon Le Lievre: If you weren’t a coach, what would you be?
[00:56:51] Jason Wong: I would be a, I would be the manager of a boy band.
That actually a manager of a dad band.
[00:57:10] Brendon Le Lievre: Dad band. There we go. Probably similar things. Uh, different challenges. Maybe if you could tell your younger self anything, what would you say to yourself?
[00:57:28] Jason Wong: Um, couple of things probably, um, Uh, it’s over two things that can’t come to mind straight away are it’s okay to be wrong. So I was a bit of perfectionist when I was younger. Um, and it’s not all about you. I was pretty self-centered as well.
[00:57:57] Brendon Le Lievre: Well, you’re talking to yourself, so that’s alright. But, uh, thank you for sharing those with us and thanks for hanging out for our coach conversation today. I’ve enjoyed hearing about the, the work you’re doing in a number of spaces, uh, and that, um, being kind kind is the, sci the art of making things better.
I really like that. So I’m taking that away. Definitely. So thanks, Jason.
[00:58:24] Jason Wong: No. Thanks, Brendan. Really enjoyed having a chat with you and hopefully we can chat again soon about some of our shared interests.
[00:58:33] Brendon Le Lievre: Sounds great. Thank you.