Anna Marshall chats with Brendon Le Lievre about her new book ‘On your marks, get set… LEAD!’ which she describes as years of professional experience in transforming the leadership capabilities of individuals and organisations, distilled into one wee book that packs a powerful punch.
Brendon and Anna chat about experiences in coaching, the challenges leaders taking a coaching approach can experience and how to get things done by locking squirrels (ideas) in a cage.
Buy your copy of Anna’s book here – https://www.peoplemastery.com/lead
Connect with Anna on LinkedIN, and find out more about what she does on her website, www.peoplemastery.com.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon: Hello, and welcome to the Coach Conversations Podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things, coaching I’m Brendon Le Lievre and today I’m joined by Anna Marshall from People Mastery. Welcome Anna.
[00:00:15] Anna: Hi Brendon. thanks for having me
[00:00:17] Brendon: Looking forward to hearing a little bit about what you’ve been doing, which obviously includes the book. We’ll talk about your new book, which is very exciting, but I’d like to start if I can, with a. Well, where did you start?
[00:00:32] Anna: Like where do you want to begin? Um, well, as the listeners will pick up pretty quickly, I started in Scotland. So I’m born and bred in Scotland, went to uni in Scotland and moved to Broken Hill in 1995.
So that was my first induction to Australia. So it was a bit of an interesting one. And, um, and then I fell into sort of HR and that, I guess, oh, the, the long precursor to how I got into coaching. So didn’t really get into coaching till a little bit later in my career, I guess. So in my thirties, I’m kind of nearly 50 now, so I’ve had 20 good years.
Yeah. So happy to give you more information along the way, but yeah, that’s kind of in a nutshell,
[00:01:19] Brendon: I like that later in my career, the thirties, not that late. I’ve found that there’s probably a similar ish age actually. And I think it’s quite exciting to have found something that I enjoy and I’m passionate about and get good results in and get paid for because it’s kind of important at this stage of all lives, I imagine but particularly with young kids around and what have you. Yeah. Uh, so early, cause I feel like sometimes people, you know, don’t always find that and they sort of go through a whole career and go, well, what do I do now? And not quite sure. So how did you bump into coaching?
[00:01:58] Anna: I guess I was when I was thinking about starting my own business.
So that was, well, no, it was probably before then, I guess, as I was on my journey, so got into HR. So I started off sort of fell into training development role, and then I kind of morphed into human resource management and then I realized that actually, I don’t really like those transactional, everyday HRE, operational type things.
I like the learning and development and growth side. So I kind of got into that and then I was like, oh, what else could I do? And then I was like, oh, coaching, this sounds interesting. And I guess I’d had a few really excellent coaches, you know, I’d been on the receiving end of some good coaches along the way and that kind of interested me. So, um, I guess it was when I was in my, so people and culture role, it’s Snowy Hydro that’s my first started doing formal coach development. And I, um, did some of the programs with the Institute of executive coaching and leadership, which I loved. And I still remember the very first program, like level one, you know, coaching for babies basically. I know we ran into that, went into that. It was a pretty grand room in, in Sydney, sort of, you know, Oak paneled can room and we’re standing there and Hillary Armstrong was um, the trainer and she asked us to kind of, you know, think about our coaching on a scale of one to 10, you know, how would we rate ourselves? So, you know, sort of did the, you know, horizontal line and we all kind of gravitated up to that sort of six or seven out of 10. And then, you know, we had the three days, which is like a uh, broke down everything we thought we knew and realized we knew nothing. And then, you know, she asks us again. So, you know, at the end of this three day program, where do you think you are now? We’re all like back down to like ones and twos and you just realize how, you know, you, you have. Unconscious con yeah, you have that conscious incompetence. Like you suddenly realize what you don’t know in the world is so vast and, you know, so little, um, and I was just hooked, you know, and just being on the receiving end of these young coaches and then myself being able to practice and just noticing the difference that you could make, not having the answers.
[00:04:10] Brendon: Yeah. So liberating when you recognize I don’t have to answer this, I just have to ask a question, even when you know, Similar sort of, um, development journey and what have you, but you know, I’d be working with a team internally and they’d come and say, Brendon, what do you think we should do about blah? I don’t know. What do you think? And they’d come up with an answer themselves as such a nice shift in leadership, as opposed to.Tell Tell Tell and then they worked it out and they’d say, we want an answer, not a question like that.
Oh, what’s the answer I think that you think I’m going to give you and they like get halfway through answering it and then go what you’re talking about is heaps better. So. Where are you at? The more I walked into level one, thinking three days on telling people what to do, how are they going to drag this out? And how are there two other levels on top of this? So I was very unconsciously incompetent when it came to. But I think it’d been using some of the techniques already, just not consciously, and sometimes it would work and sometimes it would fall flat on its face.
[00:05:22] Anna: Yeah. It’s kind of interesting. Isn’t it when you kind of learn something and you kind of go, oh yeah, I’ve been doing that, but you didn’t know the Why. And I think, you know, you have that kind of light bulb moment. You’re like, ah, that’s why that works or, well, that light, that’s why that doesn’t work. And I often think when I’m doing delivery now, like if I can help people deepen their understanding of the why, like, why does that work? Why is that a good strategy? Why is that or not a helpful strategy? Um, it doesn’t matter if they’ve heard it before. Just you building up these layers of understanding and practice. That makes a really big difference.
[00:05:57] Brendon: No. And I enjoyed seeing that play out throughout the book. We have to give the book a plug in a minute around that transition from individual contributor, subject matter expert, technical excellence whatever font of all knowledge into management or leadership of, of others and how often we can fall into that trap of I’ve done that. I know the answer, here’s the answer. And I think the words you use in the book, I help them to solve their problems as opposed to, um, them becoming your problems. It’s more eloquent, but chief, between your and there in particular. Yeah, exactly. What’s the book called? We keep talking about this book.
[00:06:43] Anna: So the book is called on your marks, get set lead. Uh, and it’s the sub title is a beginner’s guide to people leadership. And it really is as simple as that it’s written, I guess, it has two audiences.
Um, the first one, obviously beginning leaders, people who are stepping into people leadership for the first time. So, you know, that might be, I don’t know, a fresh graduate that’s just about to take on some kind of people responsibility, or it can be someone that’s, you know, gone down that technical path quite, quite far, and then transitioned over to leadership.
So, um, it doesn’t really matter what, you know, what age and stage you’re at. It’s just, if you’re making that sort of that first step into people, leadership this is hopefully a good guide for you. So said, I guess it set up like a resource, a handbook to help you manage, to do the transition really well.
[00:07:32] Brendon: You know, I’ve spent a bit of time recently reading it and I bought the Kindle version cause I
wasn’t confident that the paper version would get here. And there was a little bit of bias in me going on. I don’t know whether this will be as enjoyable, but I actually really liked it because it meant I could just highlight little patch, like passages and go, oh, that’s a good note. Or I like how that’s written or I’ll have to bring that up.
And then they they’re all in there in a notebook effectively. So. The little things that I picked out of it along the way. I wish I’d known that earlier in my career.
[00:08:05] Anna: Well, yes, that’s excellent. If you had to pick one thing, Brendon, that you, you know, it’s got, I feel really flattered that you find lots in there that was helpful.
So thank you. I’m really delighted because that’s what it’s all about. But if you could only pick one thing, you know, what would you say has been most useful?
[00:08:22] Brendon: The thing that landed best and that I will be, um, using and attributing, uh, was the quote from your mom about how my phone is for my convenience not for others. I absolutely loved that. I thought because so often I’ll be running training sessions or coaching, or what have you. And people will be distracted by their phone and I just think that’s such a nice reframe it. It’s not there. So, so other people’s can conveniently contact me it’s there so I can use it for my own convenience.
So I think, and I hope that that will reframe, but there are a number of things as always sort of reading through it that sort of jumped out at me. Um, In particular, you know, I’ve been doing for a while, but should’ve started earlier. So there were a couple of times I’m reading. I’m like, oh, I hope there’s something on, you know, values or, uh, you know, different approaches people might have and you’ve used DISC in there, or, you know, some things that. How do I manage my time when everyone’s coming to me and I sort of turn the page, you know, virtually and I’m like, there it is. So that was really well. Um, and, and some really like how there’s a mix of here’s the research, here’s some resources, here’s my exposure and experience with it, with a nice story.
And then the, um, the DRA at the end
[00:09:50] Anna: reflection,
[00:09:51] Brendon: reflection pieces around it, as opposed to just sort of burning through the book and then going well, I don’t, I don’t really know what I’m meant to do with it. I know I read that somewhere, but where is it in the book?
[00:10:00] Anna: Yeah, I think that the thing you’ve done lots of facilitation too, you know, that there’s so many different types of learners out there.
So I guess I was quite conscious when I was writing the book, you know, people like to read books in different ways. So how can I sort of do a bit of a, not quite something for everyone, but I can, I have a. Uh, layout that enables people to, you know, if they just want to dip in and out, they can do that easily.
Or just give me the nut, you know, what’s the nutshell. So let use the DRA, the DRA discovery reflection action. You know, you can pop into the end of the chapter and go, ah, that’s really the crux of it. Um, and it tell you what, it’s a bloody good practice for me to be able to make it distilled like that. Um, when I was writing the book, I had a book coach, so Andrew Griffiths, he’s a re really, um, prolific business writer he was amazing. And, you know, he said the challenge is to write a short book. No, it’s easy to write a long book, but it’s hard to read a short book. And he said, it’ll be the best personal development you’ve ever done. And it, and it is for so many reasons, but the power of distilling your thinking when you’re wanting to translate it to somebody else is unbelievable. You know, there’s some chapters, my goodness, they took a lot of birthing. Um, but then going through the process, you just get really, really clear on what it is that you’re trying to say. And it’s been so valuable for me because you know, you, you, you get the crux of what you want to communicate, and then you find yourself in conversations, you, whether it’s with your good self or other people, and it’s there and this really, you know, in the essence and you can just drop it and the people that you see them have that the light bulb moment. And for me, that’s really powerful because it means I waste a lot less of their time, but yeah, it’s been awesome.
[00:11:57] Brendon: And what, what did you learn about yourself while you were writing the book?
[00:12:02] Anna: Gosh, it’s that whole thing about, you know, who am I to write this? You know, who am I to write about? You know, it’s a confidence thing. Um, and you know, not everybody, not everybody does write a book. I believe if I can write one, any, anybody can, but not everybody does. Uh, It’s when you hand it over to someone, you know, cause I guess I didn’t write it cause I want to be, you know, uh, in a New York times, number one, best-selling author.
It’s totally not about that. It just, there was a book in me that wanted to come out and, and I thought, I don’t care if anybody buys it ebecause I’m just gonna use a resource for my programs and I’d give it to my coachees if they’d find that useful and that kind of stuff. So it was kind of I’m going to do anyway and bonus is, people have bought it, which has been great.
Um, but just to, uh, stand behind your views and opinions, uh, you know, backed with some research too, and to be able to hand it over to someone and, and feel , at that point, there’s nothing more I could have done. Like it’s as good as it as I could possibly make it. That doesn’t mean it’s exceptional. It just means it’s as good as I could get it with a fabulous editing team. Of course. So, yeah, it’s been, it’s been really interesting. So I feel more confident in what I think about.
Yeah. So, I mean, you know, the part of reflection, Brendon, you can’t be a coach and not know that stuff. And it’s just like 75,000 words worth of reflection. I mean, super powerful.
[00:13:33] Brendon: Yeah. I like the, like how useful that is. It’s definitely something I need to get back to doing with a bit more habit because I had a really good structure and framework in place and then it slipped and I haven’t, haven’t got back to it yet.
[00:13:50] Anna: How did you do it?
[00:13:53] Brendon: So I used to get a, um, an A5 book. That’s the one that’s smaller than A5 book. Then I I’d open it to a two blank pages. And at the end of the week on every Friday and the appointment is still in my calendar because it’s there for perpetuity. It just says review the week is what the meeting is. And in that time, what I would do when I was doing it was write at least three things that went well on the left hand side and no more than three things that didn’t go quite so well on the right, because otherwise it just fill out all the right pages, all these things fell to pieces and that conversation didn’t go well, I didn’t have lunch. I didn’t. You know, put enough time aside for that. or I cut someone off. I gave advice when I strip all that stuff would just fill the book and they’d been not as much on them, on the left. And what I really liked about that was it, it helped me to get those thoughts down on paper. If you do it for a month, then you’ve got 12 things that have gone really well written down already.
And so, ah, it was a bit of a dud month. I didn’t really get much done or I don’t feel like I’ve made any progress when you get called into your manager’s office for a performance discussion, you know, whether that’s the annual one or the six monthly one will hopefully one of the more regular ones. If you get them a book is a tip in the book about making them that way.
And you can sort of say, well, these are the things that I’ve done. And you’ve got them there. The other thing it showed me is where there are patterns, you know, I didn’t have that conversation. I didn’t approach that situation prepared. I didn’t, you know, whatever it might’ve been and that’s shown up over three or four right-hand pages, maybe I need to do something about that.
And then when I would go and speak with my manager or a mentor or trusted colleague, coach, et cetera, Like, I’ve got some things I need to work on and some successes that I’ve put in place, but I haven’t adapted that to virtual yet. That’s the thing I’m trying to be more virtual. Um, and that’s just, cause I haven’t tried, I think more than anything else.
[00:16:19] Anna: And when you, when you say virtual, do you mean, um, like digital or like capturing your records digitally?
[00:16:27] Brendon: Yeah. Trying to get away from the use of paper.
[00:16:30] Anna: I use a remarkable, I don’t know if you’ve had a look at those, but I love it because I was a bit like you. I was like, oh my God, how am I going to get rid of this paper, nightmare?
And so I’ve been using that for coaching notes. I love it for coaching notes. I love it for everything. In fact, I find that really good because it’s so close to having a note pad and a pen. Right?
[00:16:52] Brendon: There was someone sitting next to me. Uh, workshop that I was at that had one and I was just, that was pretty cool. Like that’s you seems to be writing nicely and efficiently and what have you. And the other thing that I liked about it was, it was, it seemed pretty neat.
[00:17:10] Anna: Yes. It certainly makes my handwriting look neater because you can pick this magical calligraphy pen. It’s like, oh, I can just improve my handwriting. It was like, that was great.
Yeah. So, um, I’ve got the tablet, got the pen for the tablet.
[00:17:25] Brendon: just have to move it across, but the remarkable does seem like.
[00:17:34] Anna: I think there’s something quite a little bit different with the tablets and the connection with the stylus doesn’t seem to be quite as deft as the remarkable. I don’t think, I mean, it really does feel like writing on paper. Um, my husband uses the sort of tablet and the stylus and it’s just not quite as, yeah, it hasn’t got the same feel, you know?
[00:17:54] Brendon: And you mentioned coaching notes. So what sort of notes are you taking in coaching? Cause I used to take heaps and now I take none and I know every coach has got a slightly different approach
[00:18:05] Anna: and I know many, I know many people say and Hillary would be rolling right going. I said no notes in the training.
Um, I use them as, um, I use them to keep me on track with the coachee. So I’m not, I’m not, you know, not writing down what they said. Um, it’s almost like. I guess I, the way I think about it is it helps me be more present, which might sound a bit counter-intuitive, but it’s, as you said, everyone’s different and you need to do whatever makes you the best coach.
And so if you look to my notes afterwards, there might just be like one or two random words and you’d be thinking, what the hell was that all about? But it could be something like a recurring theme that seems to be coming up in the conversation and they’re mid flow and you’re going, I don’t want to ask them about that right now, but I don’t want to forget about that later. And so it allows me to kind of park it and then let go of it so I can stay present in the conversation. So I guess that’s how I do it.
[00:19:06] Brendon: Yeah. And I’ve seen some coaches. Quite conceptual. They almost draw the conversation on how they do it and stay present. They draw these little journeys and paths and forests.
And yeah,
[00:19:23] Anna: I had a, a lady that I know he’s a really good coach, Deb king, and she did that. And I remember it was a virtual coaching conversation. So I think we’re just doing it on the telephone. And, um, at the end of the session, She just sort of as an extra bonus to sent me a photograph of the sheet and I was blown away, there was like little houses and all sorts of stuff on it, then it will obviously just her mind is really visual like that and so that’s how she captured, you know the conversation. Um, so I think, I don’t think there’s like a right or wrong answer. I mean, taking notes is bad if it takes you away from the conversation. Um, but if the, if the notes enable you to stay more present in the conversation and serve the coochie more effectively, then why would you need.
She says standing behind her own opinion for once.
[00:20:18] Brendon: No, I agree if it works, do it. There’s another coach. I know that will clock words that people use. Regularly or multiple times, and they’ll just write them once, but they’ll tick or circle and say it again. And so I’m trying to do that mentally. You’re right sometimes it sticks and sometimes it’s like, where are we going? I had a oh well the next question will be whatever the next question going to be. But I, you know, if I could have held onto that, maybe there would have been a different conversation.
[00:20:52] Anna: Yeah. You never, you never know do you yet? I think that’s the thing, isn’t it?
You know, you, you might, you write that word and you said you’d held that word in your mind and you come back to and place it in front of the coachee and they say not relevant. Okay. Great. Move on. Um, and maybe, maybe they, maybe they go, oh my goodness I’ve just had a breakthrough. So you just never know. And that’s probably what I love about it too being a sort of a variety person and a bit more spontaneous. You never know where they’re going to go. Although I’d probably say usually not where they think they are.
Yeah. It’s
[00:21:27] Brendon: whenever you think I’ve got this great question. Like, oh, they’ve said the word interesting. 400 times in 30 minutes, I’m going to put that in front of them and they go, oh my whole life. I see it differently now. And it’s like, oh, you’ve just said the word interesting yeah, 401 times down there. Okay.
Interesting. Yeah. Whatever, move on. It’s really interesting. It’s not about you, Brendon.
[00:21:53] Anna: I know. Isn’t it. Isn’t it fascinating. How there’s these little phrases that stick with you? You know, like you said, the, my mum’s comment about the mobile phones for my convenience. Not anybody else’s. Um, and I remember Hillary like my coach trainer, the first level going, who’s this question for, is that for you? Or is that for them? And that one has been like sort of fire branded across my mind serves me well every time. And I think w you know, coach, you know, you come into the coaching profession and you are curious anyway, but it’s a different kind of curious, isn’t it. And an enabling curiosity, I guess.
[00:22:35] Brendon: Sometimes I find that can be quite hard to hold onto, particularly when there’s similarity with counterpart, you know, worked in similar streams, worked in similar departments, potentially know similar people, you know, do similar activities. And they’ve taught sitting there talking about all these things and it’s just, oh, I’d love to, you know, share my experience there.
I was a scout. I was a public servant. You know, volunteer. I was a, a blood donor on all these things they talk about. It’s not about you just.
[00:23:08] Anna: I always feel relieved when I’m coaching someone. Who’s so different from me because just like, there’s just going to be so much easier. I know nothing about your area.
Excellent, great. This is going to be awesome. Coaching.
[00:23:20] Brendon: Yeah. Database design. Wonderful. Uh, you know, insect, uh, sciences, magnificent let’s coach. Let’s go. Yeah, exactly. Because I got nothing. You can ask me all you want. I can’t
[00:23:34] Anna: have nothing to give you.
Yeah. You go find someone else for that
For sure . So it’s intriguing as well.
[00:23:41] Brendon: And I like, I liked your definition of coaching actually from the book. Even though I’ve coached for a long while now. I still don’t have a great definition that I could say to people. I often say it’s easier to experience than it is to explain. Have you got five minutes and I’ll just ask you some questions and they’ll sort of get to a point like, oh, that’s interesting or thinking about that differently or, well, that’s new and I’m like, that’s coaching and they go, oh yeah, that makes sense. Uh, uh, you know, I thought your definition was, uh, coaching is the ability to enable another person to explore and resolve an issue for themselves. Coaches do this work by being present, listening deeply and asking powerful questions that spoiler alert, there is no advice giving component in coaching and your role as a coach is to help them identify and explore different perspectives and use questions to help us do this work. There is no need to provide advice. The coachee is perfectly capable of coming up with alternate perspectives all by themselves when you ask useful questions. So I quite liked that . As well, that was one of the ones that got highlighted.
[00:24:47] Anna: That’s great. I think, I can’t remember if I’ve got it in the, I’m pretty sure I’ve got it somewhere.
It might be, it might just be down as a quote, but I think, you know how I talked about some of, some of those phrases that just get branded on you when you’re going through your learning, um, Chip McFarlane, who is an awesome, um, you know, an amazing coach. He, he, um, he had us do this exercise. It was in Melbourne.
I think it might’ve been the level level two coach program. And if you can imagine sort of a room full of coaches and we’re all sort of in the circle, must’ve been like the second day. So we’ve come back in and we’re, we’re, you know, rallying the troops for the day, so to speak and, and Chip’s, you know, he’s a very sort of, um, striking, um, man, He’s sort of standing in the middle of the room and he said, so, you know, what is coaching?
And a bit like you’re saying, you know, it’s, you know, it’s easier to experience and to explain. And so, you know, there’s the coaches there and some of them are super experienced, like way more than me and they’re struggling, you know, they’re coming up with ideas. And so they’re putting in all their suggestions and, and Chip is putting his hand towards them and like with like the stop sign and going, No. No. And there was a part of me internally, like the facilitator that was dying a little bit in like, oh my gosh, he’s shutting everybody down. This is terrible, you never do that in facilitation. Anyway no, no. The big hand, no shutting down everyone. And so we went, you know, all these a million different suggestions.
No. And then he just said to us at the end, he said, coaching is enabling someone to think differently and have them act upon it. That’s it. I don’t know. And we were like, wow. And part of me, it was, I was a bit angry to be honest about the way I’d been treated, but I have never forgotten that phrase ever since.
And I thought he’s a bit clever. Isn’t these kind of really got to stick with us.
[00:26:44] Brendon: Yeah. I’ve done a lot of training with IECL, but never, never managed to get Chip.
[00:26:49] Anna: Uh, well, yeah, he’s, he’s just an incredible, uh, coach and. Yeah. I had a very interesting experience with Chip because I, um, maybe a little digression, but interesting, just in terms of all your different talents that you can use, hopefully.
Um, and I, um, I’d had a car accident before I went to my level three training, so I’d Chip level two and level three, and I’d broken my neck, so actually broke. So the C two, which is like the second one down from your skull and fractured it right through the right-hand side. So basically. One false move and I would have been up sort of quadriplegic anyway as luck had it, I didn’t. So I had a neck bracefrom sort of chin to chest for three months after the accident. And so not long after that, I went to do this training and I think, you know, when you’re in the coaching practice and you’re doing deep reflection and I think. I don’t know how it happened, but just sort of all that emotion must have come to the surface.
And one of the coaches was that I was working with just looked at me just in that way that like, when they can see into your soul and she said, are you okay? I’m just like, no, I totally lost my bundle and went to the bathroom and I was sobbing so hard. I could not stop. And I thought, gee, I just, you know, I just actually couldn’t stop I’m in there.
I’m doing that. Breathe, breathe. Couldn’t even breathe. Come out of the bathroom. I’m still like the tears are falling down my face and I could not get myself together and I kind of caught Chip’s. eye, and I kind of, sort of sgave him the, the way from the side. Can you help? So he came over and he just kind of, sort of took me for a little walk.
And I said, you know, I’m kind of doing that hard sobbing. I can’t get my self together, you know? And, um, anyway, so we went, just went for a little walk and he, and he said, okay, I just want you to stand. And just, I want you to think of, um, you know, all these things that are concerning you and we’re going to put them up in balloons.
And so, you know, we had, you know, issue number one, issue, number two nation industry. And he said, we’re just going to let them all go up there. And it’s almost like we were holding onto this big bunch of balloons. And he said, are you okay? Said, yeah. I’m, okay. He said, okay, now I’m going to snip them and we’re going to let them go.
Are you ready? And I was sort of slate standing against the wall and he sort of, to sort of his, his fingers as the scissors, you know, it’s all just, um, you know, visualization and cut the strings. And I had the most incredible experience. I just felt like I fell back into my body, like boom, grounded back on the floor again, it was unbelievable.
So I kind of got this extra amazing experience when I was working with Chip and he’s a shaman too, so I’m not quite sure how that all fits together, but it was just incredibly powerful regrounding experience. So he’s a bit of a special person in my book
[00:29:37] Brendon: when you bump into those people, you hang onto them, right?
[00:29:41] Anna: For sure, for sure. But just his ability to be present and enable me to kind of come back from where I was at, you know,
Oh, it was incredible. I’m sure it’s not as easy as it sounds just the way that it sounds really simple, but I I’m sure there’s a lot of deep skill in there. Yeah.
[00:30:04] Brendon: Yeah. So you haven’t had a go at doing that with a client or a counterpart or someone then?
[00:30:09] Anna: No, it was, I mean, I was actually, you know, right next to him physically and I start to think there was probably something in that too.
Um, Yeah, what I was like, you know, I can’t remember a time where I’ve been that upset and, and it was kind of like a surprise as well. So yeah, it was interesting anyway, so yeah, powerful experience, coaches are amazing people. I agree. I mean, you say digression and I sort of think, well, that is just where it goes.
[00:30:35] Brendon: Right? That’s how conversations and coaching conversations, often people show up and they go, oh, I just want to talk about. Getting promoted or that, you know, I don’t want my manager or I want to be better at something, or I want to, you know, be a, fix a relationship with my stakeholder. And then before, you know, it, you can be into those experiences in those moments and triggered like something just triggers.
And it’s like, okay, I had that happen once I was doing a coaching demo in front of a room full of people. I was running a leader as coach program. Yeah. And as part of the program, we do a, a demo of just the grow model, fantastic model, and got the questions pretty much in front of me on a sheet to show them you don’t have to memorize all these questions in order for it to be a good experience.
Uh, it’s not almost, it’s almost not about the question. You just keep asking all that stuff. In front of the room, their colleagues sit around the outside and you say, look, it’s confidential. We don’t know where this is going to go. I get about four questions in and the counterpart just burst into tears. And I was like, What obviously needed to come out and, um, you know, helped that processing to happen.
Not quite to the, you know, that same extent, but you know, they were really good about it. There was, they say look, it’s just a motion. I’m just frustrated. You know, I found an avenue to channel that I feel heaps better. Now it’s out much clearer on what I want to do. Now, all of that was really good, but I was kind of hoping it’d just be a fairly cruisy, you know, coaching conversation that we could demonstrate in front of people. I’m like, well, emotions happen in coaching. I think that’s one of the things about online. That’s been the hardest, right? Is it’s harder to hand a tissue over online if trip one of those switches and someone.
[00:32:26] Anna: Yeah, but it’s tricky. I, um, when you were talking about having that coaching conversation demo, it made me think of another example, um, which was really interesting where coaching conversations can go.
I was working with a client and again, we were doing some, so some coach development with some of the leaders and we asked because we’d sort of started with the CEO and leadership team and then start to drill down through the organization. We said, we asked two of the leadership team, if they become more come and be the coach and the counterpart in front of this group of young leaders, happy to do that. So that was awesome.
So we had the operations manager and the policy manager, and so the policy manager, female, she’s the coach operations manager, male, he’s the counterpart. And we’d asked them to think about an example, up front. So. Operations managers a bit cheeky. So he kind of looks at the audience and says, now, it’s confidential, right?
It’s not going to leave this room. And you could see them sort of, everybody’s sort of teaching a collective breath. Like I wonder what he’s going to say. And he said, okay, I’ve got a really important issue. And the coach has gone. That’s okay. You know, it’s a safe space to have this conversation. He says the challenge I’ve got is.
My wife doesn’t think we should tell our children about the Easter bunny, but I think it’s lying. What am I going to do about it? And of course there was like this uproarious laughter from the group and then he turned and said this is not funny. This is serious. This is a serious problem. And he, they went into it. The coaching was gold.
And I just regret that I did not video that coaching conversation, but he was amazed, you know, he really, it was really a challenge for him. And so, you know, always easier to coach in something real. And th the coach did really well and ended up coming up with a few options and how they would move forward.
And the audience was just enraptured in this conversation. So, um, you never knew what you’re going to get
I wasn’t
[00:34:24] Brendon: expecting it to go that way. I thought he was going to say I’ve got an issue with one of my stakeholders, the policy manager, and I just want to work through it.
[00:34:37] Anna: But that’s the thing you let you to subjects that you think, or, or issues that people turn up with that you think are going to be really simple, can become really complex or vice versa. Like what they think is really complex and how many times, I don’t know if you’re the same Brendon and have you could, if you had a dollar for every time, someone said no, that I’m seeing that I’m thinking and you see that penny drop moment. It’s magic.
[00:35:03] Brendon: It is magic and it can be a little addictive. I found early in my coaching career as well, trying to get that outcome work towards it. Why are you not seeing this differently? You’re not having that moment because you’re trying to chase the moment, Brendon, and you’re not actually present. Thank you supervisor.
[00:35:22] Anna: Thank you very much.
[00:35:23] Brendon: Okay. So just got to go back to being present and then those moments will appear again, no guarantee, but they’re more likely to
even let the patience, you know, sometimes we’re. Yeah. Wow. That was kind of a really interesting conversation, but, you know, and did, did they actually get anything out of that?
You know, you’ve asked them and they’ve said yes, but you kind of, you’re not, you’re not feeling that confident, you know, you haven’t really seen anything and then they come into the next conversation and there’s been this transformation between that’s incredible to me so I, you know, again, it teaches you that patients, you know, it’s not a, it’s not a one night stand, you know what I mean? It’s so long term relationship and you need to be patient and things do move. You know, sometimes it takes a bit longer. Yeah, yes.
I like it when they get those, those longer engagement. As opportunities as well, rather than just come in one session, try and get something progressed. And so I think we get more value if we did two or three or six offered up to that amount, you know, sometimes people are done in two sometimes people need eight. Yeah. Yeah. It would all come out in the wash, but. Yeah, it’s interesting how that can happen as well. And that the change has to happen outside of the sessions as well. So sometimes you don’t get to see that. And I think, you know, something I continue to reflect on and, um, Um, still not quite know how to say maybe you’ve got a tip for me here as well, or, um, you know, we meet these people. We spend three hours of our lives with them and three hours of their lives with us. Dramatic change happens. They say things to us, you know, that they sometimes say that you haven’t told anyone else, or haven’t shared with anyone like they are deep reflective conversations. Sometimes there’s tears. Often there’s laughter. And then it’s just like, all right, thanks for that. And we’re gone. I know, I know that, you know, it wasn’t, you know, the opposite of a one night stand, it wasn’t going up. I’m already married. I’m not looking for another wife, but you know, it felt like there was something there and then it’s just sort of gone and then you bump into them, when you sit in the shops, it’s like, oh, yep. Cool. It’s just, it’s it. It’s a, it’s a strange Howie.
[00:37:52] Anna: I know it kind of eats an interesting relationship, isn’t it? Um, but I, I kind of, the way I like to frame it is that, you know, the coaching has, you know, empowered and enabled them to make that next step, whatever that step was on, whatever, whatever journey they were on.
Um, That’s a credit, that’s a credit to you and that’s a credit to us that they can make that next move forward. You know, I guess what would be worse than that? If we’d had a hundred coaching sessions than this still needed us I guess. Um, I like to think, and maybe this is just for my own amusement. Like I like to think that uh, we can, uh, do hold a bit of a special place with our coaching counterparts. And I know maybe like you to, Brendon, in the ACT like, you know, if I have got people that are local and are bumping into them, you know, there’s, there’s kind of a warmth there, you know, they really appreciate the work. And, um, and also that you, as a coach have been privileged to look behind the curtain that sometimes no one else does.
So they feel seen. And, um, yeah, I think it. It’s just the, kind of the two sides of the one coin, isn’t it. We get that privilege. And with that, with that also comes that stepping away, you know?
[00:39:04] Brendon: Yeah. Yeah. It’s been an interesting thing to experience over the last few years while I’ve been being coaching more in that way, internal coaching and obviously, yeah.
I think the delineation is easier there because you just get back to being a leader and follower or manager and team member, or colleague or peer or whatever it might be and you get to sort of follow along a bit more of the journey. But yeah, when it’s purely that coach counterpart and then away you go.
Um,
[00:39:38] Anna: can I ask you a question, Brendon, you know, cause you you’ve been in that in the organizational sort of context and then you’ve switched out as you have now. And it’s interesting hearing you say, oh, that’s kind of easier. And my experience has kind of been the opposite. Like I’ve found it so much easier being on the outside for want of a better word.
And I, I’m wondering now that you’re a little bit further along that journey, you know, when you have your reflection, you know, Do you think there’s a difference in how you coach does it being on the outside? Does it enable you to coach more, I guess purely or what would be your observation?
[00:40:15] Brendon: I think it’s, it’s easier because there’s a lot of unknown, right?
Like, I don’t know the stakeholders, I don’t know the players. I don’t have as much skin in the game. You know, when you’re a manager that, you know, I’m just visiting another example in the book. I’m not getting the data I need. I’m just going to escalate it. Yeah. And then the manager can tell them to do their job.
And I won’t have to worry about it as an external. So what might the result of that be? But internally it’s like, please don’t do that because you’re going to create a whole world of chaos and not be aware of, or I’m just going to go and tell them, you know, this person that’s working for me, that’s not doing their job that they’re fired or that they’re being performance managed.
It’s like, well, there’s some processes we might need to follow. Let’s look at those processes, if I’m internal, whereas external, you know, I can stay more curious. I can ask more questions. So there’s definitely that element where it’s a bit easier. I think externally, you know, like you say, show up and coach this person, who’s an expert in anything finance and all that.
Well, you’re not going to get any advice about how to. You know, get the books to balance for me, because that is not my area of expertise. Uh, but you know, if you, you want to reflect on your own performance in that role, I can definitely do that sort of thing. So I think it sort of ebbs and flows both.
[00:41:39] Anna: I usually say to the, if I’m doing, like you say, leader as coach kind of development work, I’ll send you, I said, I’m really sorry, your job is so much harder than mine. You know, that whole kind of concept of the multiple hats and, you know, I’ve just got the coach hat on and nothing else, but you’re already wearing the leader hat, and now you’ve got the coach hat and you’ve probably got all these other hats that you’re wearing as well.
And I think it’s, um, difficult, for, you know, internal coaches to separate those sometimes. And. Um, so yeah, I always feel grateful that I only have one hat again, very privileged and lucky to be in that position.
[00:42:23] Brendon: And I’ve worked hard to be in that position as well Anna got to remember that lucky happens.
[00:42:30] Anna: I’m always kind of optimistic and lucky and grateful.
[00:42:35] Brendon: Yeah. I think the leaders coach the challenge there, and I say that. Um, people when I’m in there running those programs as well, is that they, I go back to their team and they try and implement the coaching approach that they ask questions and they sit quietly and they listen deeply and what have you and, the team members at times go, what’s going on here? This is different. Oh, they went on that coaching training. Well, if I just ride this out for a fortnight, they’ll go back to just telling me, and I won’t have to worry about that anymore. So I think that challenge is really hard.
In leader as coach, until your team recognized, the value of that approach is that you go and get the skills and you try and put them in place. And there’s a lot of resistance often, too. I don’t really want to engage in that because then you’re going to make me think and at the moment I just ask you and you think, uh, and so they’re up against that challenge as well. It’s not only have they got six different hats on and they’re trying to work out which one they should be wearing when and how and why, but the people often don’t want them to be wearing that coaching hat. Whereas if we get engaged, we want some coaching come in and coach.
[00:43:50] Anna: Well, you’ve actively been drawn in. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s kinda, it’s kinda interesting, isn’t it? And I think, um, With just thinking about the, sort of the multiple hats and they’re wanting the answers and things like that. I think also it’s that challenge of knowing that, you know, a coaching conversation could be like two minutes long.
There’s this preconception or misconception that, oh, well, a coaching conversation is like isn’t an hour, like sitting down in a meeting room separate to everything you like, know, it’s the, you know, you walked from your desk to the, you know, the the water cooler. That’s a coaching conversation right there.
So there’s kind of a lot of things that we have to sort of, you know, unlearn about coaching when we’re kind of working with leaders, I think to really get them, to see how that works. Almost surrepstiously coaching I mean,
[00:44:46] Brendon: I’ve shared two of my favorite already. What, what do you think I’m going to tell you, what answer do you think I’m going to give you? The other one I really like is when I’m working with a manager and they are assigned me a task is to use coaching skills there and say, what does good look like for that activity or for that task, from your perspective? And so many times know, I used to work with a number of managers that just saw the world differently to me and completely differently to me. And I’d ask them that question and they go, I haven’t really thought about it. Yeah, a brief would be sufficient and I would have been thinking 40 page report, or they’d say no we’re going to go deep on this one. I want 40 pages. And I, in your paragraph in an email would have been heaps on that. Like just completely different spectrum, like ends of the spectrum with regards to that task. And if I hadn’t asked that question, I wouldn’t have got access to that.
Yeah. Is that coaching? Is it not? Well, it helped us both to think differently through, through asking a question and then, and then listening to the answer as opposed to, yeah, I know exactly what you want from me the I’ll go into it and then I’ll come back and it’ll be exactly the opposite of what you wanted.
[00:46:02] Anna: I guess. Yeah, they’re, they’re really good. And I guess the other thing is sometimes the person didn’t realize that they weren’t clear on that, you know, like, oh, that’s a good question. What do I actually want? Yeah. Hmm, good to know, you know, was it the 40 page or, or the one or the one, you know, the little paragraph email.
Um, so again, you’re just, you know, by asking those simple questions, they, you you’re enabling the other person to reflect. Which is powerful for both of you and just waste so much less time, as much as you might say, we’ve got to give them time to do the reflection, but look it be seconds, um, and saves that all that might, all that, you know, meaningless stuff that you’ve done that was not required.
[00:46:45] Brendon: Yeah. And it helps with the why frame as well. Like, why am I doing this? Why, what are you going to use it for? Who is it going to, who’s going to see it. And so, you know, I encourage people that worked for me. And for anyone else that, where that question might be useful, you know, just ask that one extra question and that’s using your coaching skills, right?
Yep. Let’s see what bubbles out of it.
What was your biggest takeaway from the book? What did you, was your writing go? Oh, That’s just absolutely gold. Anna, how did you not realize that earlier? And you know, it’s taken for you to write the book to appear in front of you?,
[00:47:27] Anna: Oh gosh, that’s a really good question.
I think there is. So it’s kind of hard to pick one thing. I, um, I was much prefer asking the questions and answering them. Brendon.
I was saying I’m really mean as a facilitator. I ask them all these deep questions, and I think God I hope they don’t ask me that, that really annoying. Um,
What would be the one thing,
thinking, thinking, thinking,
I think sometimes, um, You reflect on some of these stories, like, you know, and I think this story is a powerful, like my book coach would say more stories, more stories, more stories, and you reflect on all the stories that have shaped your life. And I guess there’s one story. I can’t remember if it’s in the book or not there’s so many stories in the thing.
And it was when I was, I went to do some work with, uh, with a friend who’s also a coach. So we went up to, um, Harvey bay to do some coaching. And we were basically running this program called coaching for performance, which was basically like a, you know, leader as coach program. Um, She was actually doing her, um, lifestyles, inventory accreditation with Human Synergistics.
And she said, would you mind being my Guinea pig? I’ve got to do a sample one and, you know, provide my reflection on how it went and things sure enough, I’ve done LSI before. So I was, I knew what I was up for. No problem. And, um, so, you know, did the tool again. And so we were doing the program, but sort of in the evenings, you know, when we had time on our own, we were kind of going through the process.
And, um, so as she was taking me through it. We’re kind of unpacking some of the elements of the, of the profile and, you know, there’s kind of that self doubt and, you know, self-criticism and all of that can, you know, I’m just lucky, you know, it’s not about skill and talent and all that kind of stuff. And she, she just said to me, he said, so what evidence do you have that you’re not good at this?
You know, this being facilitation, coaching, that kind of stuff. And I was like, what evidence do I have? And you know, you start to go through that. Well, okay, well, what is the evidence? You know, feedback, anecdotally, you know, learning evaluations or that kind of stuff. And I was like, , there isn’t any evidence.
And then, and I kind of, you know, you say the words and you go, there’s no evidence that I’m not good at this. Wow, you know, and you, and it still sits with me now. It’s like, wow. Okay. Why am I still holding onto that? If there’s no evidence, why am I still, the only thing that is getting in my ways, me. Get out of the damn way.
Um, and I’m still, I’m still a bit in my way to be honest, but I think I’m writing the book, you know, again gives, gives me more, actually people are getting something out of it. Oh, I’m actually alright at doing this. Um, so it just, that’s probably a very long answer and not quite directly answering your question, but I guess that’s been sort of most significant reflection on a previous reflection. It just, it keeps coming up. I have to keep visiting this one. Brendon. It’s not going away.
[00:50:59] Brendon: Yeah, no, I think that’s, it can be so true around. Yeah, how we do get it in your own way as well. I wrote a book. Why would you want to read your book? Or I’m going to start a podcast? Well, who do I listen to? That turns out people, well,
[00:51:19] Anna: you know, one of the things is, um, you know, if I can go back a few years, like when I was in the UK, it might’ve been.
I’m trying to think maybe 2017, something like that. I was walking with my sister and I said, you know, I think I’m going to write a book. And I had, and it wasn’t exactly the idea that ended up, you know, that I would be in the end, but sister said to me, and she’s very direct. She’s a, um, an emergency medicine consultant.
So a specialist emergency medicine person. So very, very direct, forthright, very intelligent. And she, and she just looked at me like I had two heads and said who do, who would read that? Who don’t write that? And I just took her comment, which she probably never thought about ever again. And just took that as that’s my, no, there, can’t write a book.
Why do we base our decisions on a sample of one? You know, it’s like when you go read these reviews and you don’t know the people, like they might be going head cases. Oh, well they said it was terrible. Okay. Well, must be terrible then. We base a lot of our decision-making on garbage. So it needs to be really careful what we’re listening to.
[00:52:28] Brendon: We do. Yes. And it’s and interesting reflection as well. Around and maybe to the importance of tone, right? Like, oh, who would read that? Who would read that?
And maybe,
[00:52:42] Anna: maybe she said it, oh, I wonder who would read that? How I heard it.
So could it just be my interpretation?
[00:52:53] Brendon: We are complicated creatures that are full of bias. Aren’t we?
[00:52:57] Anna: For sure. We are indeed.
[00:53:01] Brendon: Well, I’m pleased. It did get written because it was really interesting. And it’s one that I enjoyed rating and took a lot out of, you know, been working in leadership development for a little while now.
And I’ve done similar study and I was still like, oh, there’s some good points in there. The other one I liked was the bird cage. Can you explain that?
[00:53:26] Anna: So, um, so for, for those people that are listening that know DISC quite well, I am ID style, which means lots of energy and enthusiasm and love starting things, but really not great at finishing things off. And so I’m the perpetual, oh, this is a great idea, we should do this. And I have 1,000,001 ideas that want to run with, and a friend of mine went to a conference and she came back with this little story she’s out.
I’ve got a really good story for you. It’s about squirrels. I was like, oh, that’s interesting. And she said, The person at the conference was describing new ideas or like squirrels. And if anybody knows squirrels, they like scamper rain. They’re dark up and down trees that they live in the UK. So I’m quite familiar with them, but you don’t get them in Australia sadly.
And she said new ideas like squirrels. And if you let them run all of your desks, they just make a hell of a mess. So what you need to do is that you need. Every time you have a new squirrels you need to put it in a cage. And then what you do is you only let three squirrels out at a time. So the concept of three ideas, and you can’t bring any more out until, you know, you’ve activated those, or you’ve dealt with them in whatever way you want.
So as a result of that, I went home. I was like, that’s a great, great story, love that. Printed a bird cage, like a picture of a bird cage, a four laminated, it, stuck it on my wall next to my desk. And every time I had a new idea, it was on a post-it note and stuck it in the cage. So the squirrles are now in the cage they are corralled and they’re not allowed day. And I only had three squirrels that were laid out this year, which was people’s. Right. The book. And sort out my pricing and I’ve actually, I’m still working on the pricing and the people, his office is probably like 90% there and the book has done. So was just goes to show.
If I had let all the other 500 squirrels out, I wouldn’t have achieved any of them. So, and I guess I talk it in the book about focus. So, and the, the squirrel analogy is there about helping you focus on things then to be honest, as much as that person said, let three squirrels. I really think one is a good number, the pair of one, like have, have your one thing that you really want to focus on, give it your full attention.
And when you’ve put that one to bed, awesome. Then bring another one out. So I’m trying to do less be, you know, do less things at once, but really focus and deliberate and get a much better result. And hopefully in quicker time to
[00:55:52] Brendon: As someone who. I haven’t actually done a disc debrief, but would no doubt be a strong, you know, I S I think that based on other tools I’m familiar with can, can occasionally let too many squirrels out or, you know, that S let other people’s squirrels out and
[00:56:12] Anna: I can help.
I can help. I can help get overwhelmed,
[00:56:16] Brendon: drowning in squirrels. So let’s put them in the cage. Let’s lock them up and let’s just stay focussed, And one of three things. So
sometimes it’s just, you know,
[00:56:24] Anna: I think that’s the thing, isn’t it, you know, you can hear these little stories sometimes and they just learned and you just never forget them.
And I’m quite a visual person as well. Hence the picture of the bird cage, you know, there is see the signal every day, bird cage, bird cage shove them in the bird cage. Yeah. Cause my team, you know, the other ways there, there’s a squirrel lague. That’s not good for anyone.
[00:56:51] Brendon: Well, thanks for joining me today, Anna, is there anything else that you’d like to cover off before we finish up?
Really enjoyed our conversation, Brendon. Thank you. Thank you for giving me questions that made me go. Hmm, that’s a good question. I’m not quite sure what the answer is. Love those ones. Uh, no, it’s been really fun talking with you.
Thank you so much for having me
awesome anytime. And I’ll put links for book where they can go to purchase itand how they can track you down on LinkedIn and stuff in the show notes. So do it that way, but thank you very much. Thanks.