James Samana joins Brendon Le Lievre for a conversation covering the importance of finding your authentic self, the power of silence and the privilege of working in a sacred way to help others quieten the noise.
James and Brendon also touch on listening with discernment instead of judgment, noticing physical changes as people speak and the power of being in service to others.
James shares how he helps people find, choose and stay on the path that has heart and how he learned from his experience of selling everything he owned and walking across North America.
You can connect with James on LinkedIn here.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon: Hello, and welcome to the coach conversations podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. I am joined today by James Samana and looking forward to having a conversation with him. So welcome James.
[00:00:18] James: Thanks, Brendon. I really appreciate it.
[00:00:20] Brendon: And it’s going to be good fun to get, to hear a little bit more about what it is you do and the, and the coaching work you do.
So I’d like to start with what brought you to coaching or what brought awareness for you to coaching?
[00:00:37] James: Look, I think it’s, uh, I think as a coach, we’re in a really privileged position and, and we need to, I guess not, not forget that it’s kind of a sacred space because as a coach, you’re creating this space for your counterparts, that they can step into a real self-awareness piece where they’re looking at the, I call them hurdles, not the obstacles, but because obstacles keep you from getting to where you want to go. Hurdles are just challenges that you overcome, but to talk openly about the hurdles that requires a element of trust, an element of, of vulnerability.
And as a coach, you’re able to create a space where it’s safe for your counterparts to do that. And if you do it well, you’re helping your counterpart, not just be more effective on the pragmatic workplace stuff that they’re coming to you for, but you’re helping them become more effective in their life and more able to affect and step into positive change to be their best self.
I think that. As a kid, I always thought that if you could make a difference in the world, like that’s kind of the shtick, right? That’s why we’re here. I used to do a lot of outdoors stuff, camping and I got into minimum impact camping. You know, you always leave your campsite better than when you found it.
And I think as a father, I’m a, I’m a dad and I’ve got, I’ve got four kids now, right? Two biological and two step kids. And, um, you kind of see the importance of making the world a better place and coaching can help do that in a variety of different sectors and segments of the world. And so that’s, that’s one of the things that I guess has pulled me to the profession of coaching.
[00:02:49] Brendon: Yeah, I like that. Leave the campfire in a better state than you found. It’s almost like leave the relationship, the coaching relationship in a better state than you found it. That’s
[00:03:00] James: and hopefully through that, you can help leave the world in a better state than when you came into it. Right?
[00:03:05] Brendon: Yeah. I’m always amazed at how quick that trust builds.
You just meet someone and you’ve barely done, you know, sitting down or what have you. And they’re like, oh, I haven’t told anyone this, or I don’t know why I’m telling you this. And you’re like, you’ve got surely you’ve got friends that you’ve got better relationships with me as your coach, but this stuff just comes out.
And then they’re like, oh, now that I’ve said that out loud, I see it differently.
[00:03:28] James: Yeah. And there’s a power that’s created by being able to say things aloud. Right. We see that all the time with our counterparts when they are, um, analyzing and pulling things through, in that, I mean, there’s a power in the silence as well that elicits that. Once it’s spoken, uh, once a goal is spoken, it becomes somehow more tangible, more real, and more of a guide to shoot for, you know?
[00:03:59] Brendon: Yeah. Yeah. I know when I’m working with a coach myself and they’re working towards me saying that that goal or something out loud, the part of me is going to me say it out loud cause then I’ll have to do something and all the hurdles will disappear. And so it was always an interesting dynamic. Like I want to do this. I told them I wanted to do this and yet there’s this hesitation of don’t let them, don’t make me say this out loud.
[00:04:26] James: Now that I’ve said it, I’ve got to do it. And I’ve got to make the changes to enable that to happen.
Yeah.
[00:04:34] Brendon: Silence is great to have such a fan of that. Um, I did some coaching the other day, virtually, uh, coaching this lady and my wife was sitting upstairs. So she was doing whatever she was doing. She wasn’t listening, but I told the counterpart, my wife’s upstairs so you don’t want to breach confidentiality if, if you need me to move or put headphones in or we’ll, she’s like, that’s fine don’t worry about it. And get to the end of the session. It was a really good session. Counterpart got a lot. I enjoyed it. And my wife goes, what was that? That was coaching. She goes, I think you asked six or seven questions in that coaching session. How long was it? And I went an hour, I guess. Well, what’s your rate per question on that session then, but I sort of reflected to her it was the questions I didn’t ask or just the ability to be quiet recognize the work that was happening. Yeah, it was just my job to be quiet and just let, let it happen. And I think that’s something that I’ve worked on over my coaching development is just recognizing when to be quiet. You don’t have to do anything. Well, you’ve already, you’re doing the doing by doing nothing.
[00:05:41] James: Yeah. There’s a power of presence. I think that a coach, um, develops. And so by not filling the airtime, but still, um, even, even via video, you’re, you’re still creating a presence and a connection and if you can maintain that intent on your counterpart, you can let them feel I don’t know. I do Aikido, which is a, uh, martial art. It’s non oppositional energy, but it’s a lot about connection. And so you connect with your counterpart and you don’t need to do that by filling airtime. There’s, there’s other ways to do that as well. Um, and that’s a powerful space then for them to explore these hurdles that they face.
[00:06:30] Brendon: What’s the link for you between what you learn in Aikido and what you do in your coaching?
[00:06:37] James: Um, there’s a term called awase, A W A S E Awase and it’s it’s about connecting, um, and creating that connection. Uh, and so that we can, instead of meeting force with force in an oppositional manner, you blend with that force so that you can help influence that trajectory and direction.
And there’s a lot of that in coaching as well. You’re not making suggestions for people and inputting ideas that they didn’t think of. You are really connecting with them to see where their voice quavers. Or where their eyes water, or where some of the emotion arises physically. And you can see that there is a, a hurdle there there’s something you’ve just said that makes me feel like there’s a challenge there. And by just putting forward that idea or that observation, it’s not an idea. It’s an observation. They can then delve into it. If the trust is there. Oh, well, yeah, actually I’m really hesitant about this cause I think that will happen. And then you can explore the, the nitty gritty around that hurdle and through talking about it that counterpart might see oh, but I actually didn’t think there were all of those other options available. And then I’m sure you’ve had this. This is the funny part where they say, thank you for giving me all of those ideas. Yeah. I didn’t say anything. I didn’t give you those ideas.
[00:08:18] Brendon: Yeah. Your ideas you came up with that’s right. Um, yeah, I’ve had that reflection too.
And something I’ve been working on a lot recently is exactly what you’ve just spoken about is that it looks like, or I’m thinking, or I’m observing, you’re frustrated about that, or you’re hesitant about that or you’re not, not as curious about that as you might be. I feel like, that comes more naturally in the coaching conversations, but, and often they could, yeah, I am.
I’m really, I’m really frustrated and I hadn’t, I, now I’m aware of that, cause I didn’t know what word to put on it or they’ll go. No, I’m not frustrated. I’m just annoyed or I’m burnt out. Okay. Well, great. What does burnt out mean to you or how is that showing up for you and it sort of,moves you away from that one little piece, like I’m struggling to connect with a stakeholder or my boss or my job or the organization, whatever it might be. And all of a sudden I’m like, oh, and that’s happening here and it’s happening here, but it’s not happening there. It’s like, oh, what’s different there you can start to dig into that and then drag it across. And I used to be kind of hesitant about calling that out. I don’t know why it just didn’t happen. And then recently I was like, I’m going to start, I’m just going to call that and say, I’m noticing this, or you folded your arms there or you leant back there and they go did I?
All right. Yeah. Oh, well it might, that might be this playing out. I’m like, oh, good. So let’s talk about that then
[00:09:59] James: if you can, as a coach, if you can feel the comfort of being authentically you then you’re able to do that without, because you’re aware that you’re not doing this as any sort of negative attack, oppositional energy.
It’s just, oh, that’s interesting your, your voice quavered there or yeah, I noticed you, you seemed resentful there and they can, they can expand it doesn’t sometimes it doesn’t even matter if you get an accurate, like you said, no, no, no, it wasn’t resentment. It was, you know, I, I guess I’m just really frustrated that, that perfect, you know, they can then expand upon it and hopefully their awareness and insight arises, but there is that tendency, and I know I’ve, I’ve had that too.
How do you call out the data points that are there before you, without feeling like I’m having a go at you, you know, oh, you just crossed your arms. And I’ve always found that if I can set intention prior to each coaching session, It helps remind me, you know, that I’m here for this person, you know, whether John or Sue or Sally or whatever their name is, I’m, I’m here for that person.
And you know that by setting the intention, it helps me generate, I don’t know if it’s compassion or it’s discernment instead of judgment, you know, because judgment has the, the tone of, for example, oh, you know, I’m talking to James Samana, he has that American accent. Right. You can taste the judgment there versus discernment, which is I’m talking to James Samana, you know, he has that American accent and it’s just, just the facts.
So I think some of that’s really important
[00:12:00] Brendon: and I’ve been taking it to. Amplifying it out. And an example of that was I met with a counterpart first session a couple of weeks ago, and I showed up to the building and he’d booked a room. He said, actually, it’s nice outside. I think I’d rather sit outside in the sun and we can get a coffee.
And if you’re up for that, and I’m like, that works for me. Like, I’ll go where you want to go. And so we set, we went and got a coffee and we sat down and lovely sunny afternoon was that it was kind of a bit hot almost, you know, I had to take the suit jacket off and just try and get under the umbrella or what have you.
And as they are conversations unfolding over the hour, uh, I can see because of the direction I’m facing. He couldn’t see there’s this big storm, like starting to blow in and form. There’s a few rumbles of thunder and that the thunder actually got his attention. He turned around and looked at it and I said, How are you linking what we’re talking about to what’s going on with the weather at the moment?
Like why not? And if he’d said there’s nothing there, I would have gone. Okay. That’s fine. I didn’t want to ask, is there a link of like, how are you linking and he went Oh actually, yeah, like there, there is a link and it played out and it was really interesting cause normally I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t go to that level, but it was just there I was like, let’s just ask it and see what happens. And it really helped, I think. That’s my read, like connect what he’d been talking about to what was happening around what he wanted to do next as a result. It’s like, ah, okay.
[00:13:37] James: And you’re right. There’s a generosity of spirit. I think sometimes if the coaching relationship is set up well, um, where if he didn’t want to go there, for example, it would have been, that would have been fine as well.
You know, you, you put out a bid sometimes they’re picked up sometimes they’re not. Um, but because of that relationship, and I can see, you know, just the rapport that you create, that that would have been okay. Well, gosh, I don’t know if there is a connection, but now that I think about it, actually there is, let’s talk about it.
[00:14:11] Brendon: Yeah.
[00:14:13] James: I liked that it was good as a poet. I quite liked some of the metaphors anyhow in life, you know, the rumbling of thunder and whatever else.
[00:14:22] Brendon: Hmm. And what helps, you know, you’re on the right path with the coaching and the impact you’re making on the world through it?
[00:14:33] James: I think there is, uh, for, for coaching, I think to be effective, I think people want to have feel some progress.
Some pragmatics I I’ve gotten into the habit of, at the start of coaching conversations. Have people, you know, what’s the measure, you try and establish what they want to use the, the time for, but then what’s the measure of success for this time. Um, so at the end of this hour how will you know that this was time well spent?
And then they can help set that? They’ll say, well, I’ll have one or two new ideas around how to approach this issue. Or I might have, I might have some further clarification about how I’m feeling about this issue, whatever it is, they help set that, that measure of success. And then you, you check in with them at the end, you know?
So at the beginning of the hour, you said you might have one or two new ideas, or if you got one or two new ideas that you would say this was an effective time. Let’s let’s review. What did you get from, from our time together? And if you can get them to, to write that down hand, handwriting helps embed things in your long-term memory.
Not so much as short-term, but in your long-term memory. And I’ll try and get them to hand write that. Oh, okay. So you were going to approach this person and research that topic, whatever it is that they came up with in the hour. And so they have a feeling of progress, and of course you want to make those smart goals for their, some actionable, you know, um, anchoring there.
But that helps. And I think, I don’t know if you can help a person connect with their inner self, um, tie back to their values, tie back to who it is that they see themselves in. And there’s a lot of work that goes into, even if it’s the pragmatic discussion, you know, I’m trying to get a promotion. Um, but I’m struggling with promotion and the feedback I get is that I’m too black and white. That black and white thing sounds like a character trait. And that starts to become a piece around identity. So if you can help your counterparts connect with their identity and look at it because so much of our identity, we’ve not invested in, you know, like you hear it when the kid talks about their favourite footy team or baseball team or whatever, they’re not actually making an analytical assessment of what’s the best team.
You can hear their parents talking through them, right? Oh, this is the best team in the world. And you can just hear, they haven’t invested their own energy into that opinion yet. And we forget that as adults, we do the same thing we adopt from culture, from unconscious bias, from so many things. And so if people can have an opportunity to look at their own opinions and their own ideas and realize is this mine, can I change it?
How much of me is in that and where am I, you start to help them to stand taller. And in that, that stance, they can do more effective good in the world.
[00:18:01] Brendon: Yeah. Are you noticing a theme at the moment with a, uh, what do you want to get out of today’s session or what are you hoping to get out of our conversation type questions?
[00:18:12] James: Well, look, for some of my counterparts, there is the, uh, there’s a, there’s a piece around, um, you know, settling into the constancy of change and helping others through. Um, and sometimes they’re coming in with a, I want to help others through that change, but the undercurrent is, you know, and I need some help with change, um, which is good, which is good.
Um, so there’s, there’s a, I think a variety of the pragmatic near issues near horizon issues. Um, but the far horizon issues, the identity pieces underpinning them all. There has been a theme around, I think, authenticity. How do I find my authentic self in this new world, in this new environment? Um, how do I, perhaps it’s, you know what we’re reading about with the great resignation, you know, where employees and people are starting to realize post working from home and things.
Oh, I’ve, I’ve invested a lot more time and family and or whatever it is. And, and I want to keep that going. How do I be my authentic self in this new world and maintain that. And I think that that’s been a piece that, that I’ve, I’ve actually, I take some comfort in knowing that that’s taking place in, in many people’s minds and hearts.
[00:19:56] Brendon: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, it’s exciting that the great resignation, you know, the bolt on to that is the great hiring, right? Cause people are going to be looking at the new jobs that better align with their values and their purpose. You know, a number of people have sort of shared with me. They go, you know, I thought I liked my job, but it turns out I just liked the people that I sit with and they took that bit away from me when we work from home and left me with all the job bit and I’ve gone, you know what, this really isn’t what I thought it was. I, um, I’m after something different now. And what might that be? Which has been an interesting sort of reflection as well. And that, that’s kind of what people are, you know, in the last few weeks, the sessions I’ve been doing, have been around, I just want to reflect on the year or the last two years, or, you know, I just want to get my thoughts in order around what’s happened. What’s what have I learned? What’s been good. What have I set out to achieve that I haven’t quite achieved yet? Am I okay with the fact that I haven’t done that, um, which has been an interesting discussion in and of itself. It’s like that goal was really important to me two years ago and now it’s not.
Yeah. Do you think it should be important to me, Brendon? I also, I don’t know. You tell me. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s been kind of interesting and, um, just helping me accept that.
[00:21:21] James: Yeah. The whole idea of if you know the world, the land has shifted, where do I now stand? Where do I sit and feel about these things?
And so often with the frenetic pace of life and the pressures to be reactive, as opposed to responsive, we forget that we have some agency, you know, some, uh, uh, autonomy in deciding how we bring our best selves to the moment. Yeah. I could see that in, in some of my clients as well. Um, but it’s, it’s kind of encouraging I think that that’s taking place. With every challenge, there’s an opportunity. Right. Uh, and like you said, the great resignation is also the great hiring of, of how to attract and retain people based upon not just salary or conditions, but around values and alignment and how that can, you know, help an employee as a whole person.
Yeah.
[00:22:25] Brendon: And I’m hoping location becomes less of an importance. Oh yeah. Through virtual means, right. Just opens the talent pool right up. If, if people can work from home, then home could be in a variety of locations, right? We, we have to change the way we lead and the way we communicate way we talk in some ways, but in others, we just continue doing a lot of what the good stuff we have been doing.
And then people might be prepared to come to the office two days a week in a, with a longer commute potentially, or, and do the rest of virtual. And I just, I hope, I hope we hang on to some of what we’ve learned. Not all of it. A lot of it can go away. I’m very happy for a lot of it to disappear, but some of what we’ve experienced in the last two years.
Yeah. I just hope we can hang on to, well,
[00:23:19] James: there is some, some, I think, light on the horizon, you know, the ACT government’s just come out and said that they’re going to be very supportive of working from home and flexible working arrangements. And I think there is some capturing of, um, lessons learned over the past two years and how can we use that to maximize the benefits. Not just for, you know, employees happiness, but we know that that engagement is a precursor to discretionary effort, which is resulting in better bottom lines. Right. So, um, there is a component around investing in this as a, you know, even if you’re cold, hard and analytical, there is a benefit in investing in some of these, these lessons.
Yeah.
[00:24:10] Brendon: And how do you bring your best self into coaching?
[00:24:13] James: Hmm, well, look, I think there is, like I said, you know, the, the setting of intention prior to the sessions, but I think too, that there’s a belief. I don’t know if you can get in that frame of mind where you can be of service. There’s a servant leadership piece that I, you know, Greenleaf, I’m a bit of a bibliophile. I absolutely love reading. I’m also a bit of an insomniac. I struggle with sleep, but I’m an eternal optimist. So when I can’t sleep, I’m usually reading. And, um, there’s a book I’ve got it, uh, uh, called, um, servant leadership by Greenleaf.
And the idea being that if we can find ourself in service to, you know, the other, the counterparts, uh, um, people that we lead, um, that you’re going to help them unlock their discretionary effort. And there’s a piece of a whole body of research on self other assessment. And appraisal, and it’s a fascinating bit in there where they look at if, if, you know, if you look at a one out of 10 for capability, and I think I’m a nine, but I’m actually only a seven. My employees will be less engaged. If I’m a seven and I know I’m a seven, my employees will be more engaged if I’m a seven, but I actually think I’m a five or a six. My employees will be the most engaged.
It’s like almost a quantifiable data evidence towards humility and service. And I really like that. Um, so I think if I want to be effective in impacting change in the world and making the world a better place and my modality to do that is through the coaching. How can I be of best service to this person that’s sitting across from me?
And sometimes it is. Challenge right. You, you create the environment where it’s safe enough for you to raise the heat and say, uh, now Brendon, I’m going to ask you something because I’ve asked you a direct question three times now, and each time you’ve deflected it, that’s a challenge and it’s hard to do if there’s not the relationship of trust, even if there is the relationship of trust, it’s still like, oh gosh, I’m going to challenge Brendon here now.
I don’t know. Um, but as a coach, you have to do that so that you can create this poignant moment for change. All right. I think that’s, yeah, it’s a, it’s a really, uh, sacred role, I think sometimes. And it can be used for, yeah.
It used to be the case where coaching was seen as a rehabilitation type of thing, but it’s not that way. It’s, it’s, you know, you’re already a high performer. How do we get you performing even better? Or your performing well here, but you want to, you sense that there’s something lacking and you want to figure out what that is, where else do you give yourself the opportunity to explore ideas in a nonjudgmental environment?
You know, with someone who’s trained and talented at listening to your inner voice, through what they see, it’s a crazy wonderful, um, conversation. Some of the best conversations I’ve had were coaching conversation.
[00:28:10] Brendon: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I agree with you at that remedial first step in performance management, um, vibe around, around coaching and how it could be used or should be used, and which I completely disagree with.
Like, it’s got a place, but why wouldn’t you offer it to your top performers? And you know, where the vast bulk majority of people are going to be in that middle? Why don’t we offer it to them? And so many times people get to the end of coaching sessions and just say like, it was, it was really nice not to be told, everyone else tells me. And I, I kind of enjoyed not, not having been told. And then they may inevitably say, oh, have you got any experience about what I’ve spoken about? That’s like, well, yeah, you hear it all is. But I think how do you hold all that in when we’re in the coaching? Cause it must be a real sort of trap to just be like, well, I know how to fix that problem.
And you just, you know, tell. And I said, you know, my reflection is every time I tell it doesn’t land, I’m like, oh, I know how to fix James’ problem. James has company with this. I know exactly how to fix this. I won’t coach I’ll tell and it’s and I tell him, you go, well, that won’t work here for me, Brendan, because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I’m like, man, I should’ve just stayed coaching now. I don’t, I don’t do that at all anymore. Um, when, when I am coaching, because of that intention piece, right. I’m here to coach I’m here in service of my job is to listen and to ask questions. But, um, I think even in particular, when I was a manager or leader as coach, it’s hard, it was easier trap to fall into like, go here’s my experience.
Yeah.
[00:29:53] James: Um, yeah, there’s a piece, um, around, uh, I think I, like you said, in service to the other, because that’s a real. I think strength of coaching and of good coaches is that connection with I’m in service to, um, actually when I got my, my, you know, there’s multiple different ways to get accredited in coaching.
I did mine through IECL I remember my, my, one of my instructors, John Raymond saying really talking about, um, creating this sacred space that you hold, you hold this space for the other to explore these vulnerabilities and you have to be connected to that, that role to be able to do it well. And, and I remember one of my earlier coaching sessions, when I first started becoming a coach, I was so excited because they were talking about something that I, I was really, you know, they’ve been to this place and it was exciting.
I’ve been there too. And I just slipped in. Ah, yeah. Did you go to this place at that place? And it totally broke their train. It broke the flow and it was like me intruding into this happy memory that they had as they were building upon and connecting with their strength and it just quashed it. And I thought, oh, I should have kept my mouth shut.
I should have kept the sacred space. Um, yeah. Which is, is, uh, uh, you know, a good lesson. It’s a good lesson. Yeah.
[00:31:39] Brendon: And knowing when to interject with those stories. Cause sometimes they, they can
[00:31:45] James: add poignancy,
yeah, it’s a hard thing to judge, you know, an art’s not a science
[00:31:53] Brendon: counterpart mentioned that they were the other day learning, um, to play a particular bands album on guitar. That was something that we’re working on. I was like, that’s great. And I was like, and I saw that band when they played the, this particular tour and they went, oh yeah, I was at that concert too. And it was, we kind of had this nice moment around, you know, a shared experience. Yeah. But other times, and it worked because then we were able to link, you know, what, what about the trust in the show?
Build some trust into the situation. And then other times exactly the same as you. It’s just like, oh, I should have been quite there that didn’t work.
And I’ve noticed that it’s hard, harder online as well. When a lot of that more subtle body language isn’t there.
[00:32:42] James: Okay. There’s a different skillset with online it’s similar. I mean, you’re building off of those same coaching skills, but when you’re doing so much of our work online, be it the coaching or the facilitation, or, you know, the workshop stuff. And it’s hard to when you’re switching hats like that in different aspects of your day to go from facilitating and giving information or our training and giving information to facilitating and holding space to coaching and being, you know, holding space as well, but to engage and pick that up in awase to connect, you know, through the screen, through the camera, um, and the audio it’s, uh, it’s, uh, a different skillset, but builds off the same.
Yeah, there’s a lot with, um, I think both online and, and in face-to-face with, uh, I don’t know, around narrative, have you found that too like, The stories people tell themselves about, I always say to my counterparts, it’s the words you use to describe yourself to yourself that matter, because that creates your narrative, that creates your reality.
Have you found that as well with, with your counterparts, um, that, you know, they get caught in this story of who I am or who the other person is and their problem solution, whatever. And it’s, it’s by looking at that story that they’re able to find possible alternative endings.
[00:34:17] Brendon: Yeah. I think there’s been a lot of that reflection that I was speaking about earlier has resulted in new narrative coming out, you know, so I thought this particular piece of work was boring or repetitive or not necessary and actually now I can see the link and why I was the best person to do it. And why. Yeah, well, I was tasked with it or why I picked it up. Um, I think there’s been a changing of narrative as well around, uh, workplace dynamics and relationships because it’s things have sort of been allowed to settle a little bit, a lot of those simmering situations, uh, uh, the heat’s come out of some of them and it’s like, oh, I can connect with that differently now and I can show more empathy to the other now. And therefore I can see things through their eyes. And, and I think, you know, perfect example from my own experience, if I’m running a workshop or a coaching session, uh, what have you, whatever it might be online and other people have dogs or cats or kids come and visit. I’m like, isn’t that magnificent? That’s so great that that’s happening and yet if my boys come and visit or they get them in the background, I’m really hard on myself around all that’s, you know, and then everyone else is like, oh, it’s fine. It’s you know, it’s great. So let him say hello. And so there’s, you know, it’s been really interesting cause it’s kind of all happening in the same room, albeit virtually, you know, on that end two thumbs up, it’s great. How good is it that, you know, family can be present? And then on my end, it’s like, I love that my family is present, but I don’t want it to intrude on what or what it is that I’m doing here. Or how does that, like, there’s a bit of sense of self there’s a bit of identity tied up in all of that as well.
But I think that’s, it’s really interesting because as I’ve noticed that happening, I’ve changed the way I think about it. And I just tell people, I’m like, you’re going to see my three-year-old he’s going to come and visit. If he gets a three second gap to get through the door to get in here, he’ll be here so, uh, get ready to say hello.
And people, as far as I can tell, they’re either nonplussed and they’re like, whatever, or they love it. Like I’ve never had anyone go how unprofessional do, it’s not professional. It’s not what it is. And, um,
[00:36:47] James: I think that’s the beautiful thing about some of this online, um, working from home component is that there is a different sense of connection.
Uh, you know, that, that, you know, I’m, I’m working from my living room or from my, you know, study or whatever it is and, or the kitchen table, or, but you know, where it used to be. You saw this one mask that was James at work. Now you see, oh, there’s James at work and there’s his bookshelf behind him and his Akido certificate and whatever.
There’s a different sense of the wholeness. Oh. And there comes the three-year-old or the cat or the there’s a, uh, it’s a nice vulnerability and connection of whole person, I think. Um, and you know, there’s, there’s a benefit in keeping things less chaotic behind you so that you can do the role, but at the same sense, there’s this beautiful connection of, of we’re all, we’re all kind of doing this and we all have community and family and, um, that’s an important piece.
[00:38:03] Brendon: Hmm.
And the more I lean into that, that the better it becomes. I think the more I can commit to like, this is life, this is what’s happening. Um, you know, obviously my family are a big part of who I am and it form a big part of my values and very proud of them. So here they are like, you know, in some way, shape or form, but yeah.
[00:38:29] James: I like too, that the family, the kids get to see what you do. You know, it used to be where, oh yeah, mom or dad, they go away to some office and then they come back. But it’s oh, no. And I see, oh, you know, mom or dad, they’re on meetings and they’re talking to people and oh, I saw them help this person. And that’s actually quite a nice component of the whole working from home piece.
Um, yeah, that I think, I don’t know. It gets missed sometimes, but there’s, I think there’ll be a benefit of, of connectivity of family post this Covidien era. If you can say such a thing
[00:39:10] Brendon: I like that it removes some of the other barriers to connection as well. Even counterparts here in Canberra that could make face-to-face they’re like virtual’s
[00:39:20] James: good.
Well, there’s the, also the pragmatic component of that. Look, I’ve got a meeting until three o’clock. We’ve got coaching at four. Can we just do it online?
And then I don’t have to come down and meet you and bring you up. And that, that works beautifully. I think sometimes, um, yeah, for, for many reasons.
[00:39:40] Brendon: Yeah. So much more efficient. Face-to-face I mean, it’s different and it’s important, but yeah, it’s like a half an hour in a car, 15 minutes for a car park, get signed in, do the work, have a lovely conversation, get some results, get some insights and buy-in um, okay.
Let’s just undo all of that as well. Whereas virtual it’s just, you know, Hey, I’m connecting with someone, you know, in Queensland and now in Perth and now in Canberra and now in, you know, international and it, it doesn’t matter we’ve got it all in one spot. Yeah.
[00:40:15] James: Yeah. This it’s, it’s interesting. You look at these, um, the scope, this expanded scope we’ve, we’ve now got, um, and the benefit that you can do. And yet there’s still these pieces that I’m going to say, the commonalities that hold, regardless of the position of your counterpart or their, um, uh, level of authority in the organization, they’re in there’s these commonalities of, of human struggle that arise.
How did, how did you, uh, Brendon, how did you, I guess connect, you know, at one point I, I came up with this idea of mine, of having a, a syllabus of life, you know, where you, where you build these critical pieces of whether it be an experience you need to have, or a piece of music you need to listen to, or, uh, you know, whatever it is. Um, but I found in doing that, it expands your awareness and acceptance of the diversity of human experience so that you can better create that sacred space of, of discernment as opposed to judgment. Um, what’s uh, if you don’t mind me asking, uh, a personal component that you touch to that helps you connect with that, that, that acceptance piece.
[00:41:54] Brendon: Good question. Is my response. It’s something I look for in my coaching. If someone says good question to me, I’m like good, we’re in a good spot. Also my delaying stalling thinking tech technique. Um, I think, you know what, I, I’m not sure if this is going to answer the question, but I’m going to go there anyway.
Um, something that’s been really important to me as I’ve continued on my coaching career is that lean back into what are my values. Um, and how do I connect with what those personal values are? Um, and how do I commit to living those values through the work that I do, um, and, you know, reflect on times where I wasn’t able to do that and the, the flow on impact, right? So how do I demonstrate integrity? How do I get to enjoy humor as part of what I do. Cause it’s a huge part of what I do and have fun. Yeah. That will really want to do that. How do I connect? How do I help people to understand how they think and then think differently if they need to, if I’m doing that stuff, I’m in a really good spot.
Um, doesn’t mean it’s always easy. Doesn’t mean I enjoy everything that I do. It doesn’t mean that, um, I don’t have to work at it, but I’m still, I’m, fulfilled by it rather than working at stuff that I’m kind of not. And, and so the, one of the things that comes from that is that all helps me to do that is to, um, is to enjoy listening, whether that’s to people, to music.
Um, and I’m a big fan of having music on, you know, at various points in whatever I’m doing. I think it’s yeah. The work from home. My wife has asked me a few times. I might walk around the house and music on loudish or headphones in singing and acting out some activity that I’m going to run with a group. And she’s like, what are you doing? I’m like, this is me working. You don’t normally get to see this cause I do this in a different building, but this is the process of me committing to what it is I’m doing. And, um, it’s how it, how it comes together for me. And yes, I know it’s strange and yes, I know it’s weird and yes, I know it’s not how everyone would work.
Uh, but I like to work in those sort of short bursts and then get distracted by something. Oh, I’ve got an idea about how to do that in a run back to the whiteboard and sort of sketch that out, so to speak. Yeah. And then I’m like, oh yeah, go over there now and wander around and oh yeah. Now there’s this, this other thing that I’ve been thinking about or I’ll read for a bit and all of that is, is me having fun using humor, you know, demonstrating my integrity,
[00:44:50] James: And you can taste it can’t, you, you could feel there’s a, uh, a key, an energy that, you know, like there’s a live wire type of energy that goes on when someone’s in that flow state. And it’s, it’s, that’s a beautiful thing to be near and to be a recipient of.
Um, and it’s a amazing thing to be a part of, you know?
[00:45:14] Brendon: Yeah. Yeah. You say, you say beautiful and I agree with you I think my wife thinks it’s just distracting,
[00:45:20] James: distracting.
[00:45:23] Brendon: That’s not how she works.
[00:45:25] James: Can, you turn that down.
[00:45:29] Brendon: She appreciates it at the same time as you know, the opposite. So it would have been at you. How do you, how would you answer that question?
[00:45:37] James: I think, look at growing up, I became disillusioned with the idea of, um, of, I dunno, of, of, I became disillusioned with a lot. Let’s just rest it there. Um, but it’s okay cause I was going to go to university and I knew that I would find all of the wise men and women of the world there who would tell me the meaning of life.
And, um, that’s not what happened. And to be fair, I went to be taught as opposed to go to learn. And it took me a while to have that realization. But until I did. I kind of came up with this thought that, well, maybe what I need to do is get away from all of these other voices and, uh, just go on a journey.
And so I sold everything I owned and walked between five and 6,000 kilometers across, uh, North America. And in that process, tried to get it down to just the inner voice, you know? Um, I’m a big as a bibliophile. I quite like poetry as well. And I remember as a kid, my mom once read me a Shel Silverstein poem.
Um, and he’s a children’s poet and it’s called, uh, The Voice Inside. And he says
There is a voice inside of you that whispers all day long that I know that this is right for me. And I know that this is wrong and no teacher, preacher, parent, friend, or Wiseman can decide what’s right for you. Just listen to that voice that speaks inside.
And it was a wow. That was you. No, I’m a kid. This is brilliant wisdom and I, yeah, that’s the, that’s the deal. And that’s what I did on my walk was try to narrow it because if you’re in a busy party, you know, and someone at the other side of the room, you can’t really hear any of the conversation, but they say, oh, Brendon Le Lievre and you go, what?
Oh, you know, you recognize those intonations. Cause you’re intimate with your name. The inner voice I’ve found speaks in whispers. And until you can get quiet enough to hear it, you don’t recognize it among the tumult of life and all the other voices take print, oh, you need to have a six pack and drive a Maserati and whatever else you’re hearing, you need to advance to the next level.
Even though you’re really happy here, you need to go for more money. Um, but if you’ve got that inner voice and that connection with it, you, you, you. You’re not swayed. You’re not, you know who you are. Um, and those things become less compelling. It makes it easier to be the person you want to be. Um, and I’d say the person you are, there was a quote, um, that was shared with me by, by, um, a person I met before I went on this walk and it was a quote by William H. Murray. Who’s a Scottish Mountaineer. And he, um, it took me forever to find his book, um, and, and have it for myself. But he says that until one is committed, there is hesitancy the chance to draw back and concerning all acts of initiative and creation that there’s one elementary truth, the ignorance of which will kill countless ideas and splendid plans and that truth is that the moment one definitely commits. Definitely commits then Providence moves too. And all sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. And I remember, you know, hearing this quote and thinking, oh gosh, that sounds really lovely. But you know, it’s a little bit Hocus Pocus.
And, you know, I put it on the shelf basically in my mind until I was about ready to go on this, this long walk of mine. And it just, you know, I was, I wasn’t ready and then it didn’t happen. And then I said, okay, set another date and I wasn’t ready. And then it didn’t happen. And then I was like, you know, what, if I don’t do this, I’m not going to do it. And I’m just going to become a zombie full of, uh, uh, regret for something I could have done. I said, I’m I committed! I said, I will do this. Or I will die. This is something that I want to do. I need to do. And then miraculously, my car sold my climbing gear sold, all of the stuff that I needed to have happened before I left happened.
And I started thinking, wow, yeah, that, that quote, actually isn’t magic. It’s real. It’s got some stuff in it that there is a element of commitment that enables an unlocking of energy to manifest your goals. And as a coach, that’s an important thing. I think, as a north star to shoot for that, if you can help your counterparts, fuel their fire of commitment towards their goal, then they’re far more likely to achieve it, you know? And that’s a, that’s an important piece of, of, uh, of work that we do.
[00:51:04] Brendon: Great story. Love, love hearing those stories of that moment. And 6,000 kms is fair old walk. How long did it take you to cover that distance?
[00:51:13] James: Off. Uh, it’s about 10 months, I S I stopped, um, at bits and pieces along the way. Cause I didn’t, I, I didn’t have any money. Um, and I needed to, you know, buy supplies and it wasn’t much ramen noodles and whatever else that you could, you know, instant stuff.
Um, but yeah, I stopped and I worked on a ranch in Wyoming for a little bit, and I stopped and did some construction in Missouri for a little bit and, you know, whatever it was, I didn’t have to sleep out at all in the state of Kansas. As I walked across Kansas. Cause the first day I met someone who said, Just, what are you doing? And I told them, you know, I’m trying to figure out my life and this is walking across. And I said, well, tonight you stay with us. Cause the boys away at university. You can have his bedroom we’re cooking meatloaf or whatever it was. And it just happened, you know, the next day, the same thing and the same thing across the whole state.
I was just, you know, you realize the, um, uh, interconnectedness of the whole world. I remember in that one of the, the people I met said, well, aren’t you scared? And I said, well, yeah, there are times I’m scared. I said, but there’s some really bad people out there. I said, yeah, yeah, that’s true as well. I said, but how about the people of this town? Oh, no, no, they’re all, they’re all beautiful. Oh, that’s great. How about the people, the town, you know, just down the road, you know, about 30 miles. Oh, Nope. They’re good quality people too. And I said, well, I kinda think that, what would they say about the people, you know, 30 miles down in the next, they’d probably say the same thing and you start to realize, oh, you know, actually we’re all wanting, you know, for all the difference in the emphasis we place on difference.
I think we lack. Um, wisdom and not placing an equal emphasis on our shared visions and goals and our shared humanity. Um, because I know in coaching, I, I hear hurdles challenges that people are struggling with and that person could be a CEO, senior level executive, or a graduate, or, uh, you know, a small business owner or whatever.
And it’s the same issue. Um, I think there’s a lot of, of, for those that can look and see, there is a lot of similarity out there. I mean, we’re predisposed to see risk over opportunity, right? With the whole, um, neuroscience and, you know, your amygdala hijack and those types of things that if you can realize that, wow, there’s opportunity here and there’s similarlity.
Again, you can Awase, you can connect and from then you can move
together, but I’m an eternal idealist as well. So I know that, but along with that,
[00:54:06] Brendon: I like the once you commit the, what you need will be provided. Providence moves the quote you’ve got, there’s a nicer way of saying that, but I reflect a couple of times in my life.
I’m going to commit to doing this. And then before, you know, it like people you haven’t spoken to for ages reconnect, or you read something online and it’s like, oh, that’s exactly what I’m looking for. Or, you know, stuff, just open opportunities, just appear and, and connections happen. And I just think to myself, how, how good is, is it when that happens and how do I help create that for others, where they connect to something and commit to it and then. Down the path I go, I’m seeing this completely differently now, which happens a lot in coaching.
[00:54:55] James: And I don’t know if it’s that the act of committing, you know, magically draws things into your view, or if they’ve already there, but the act of committing shifts, your awareness enough that you can now see them.
You know, that thing online that you just read that was online the week before you committed, you know, but now that you’ve committed, you’re able to see it. And that catches your attention because you radar is tuned to this goal that I’ve committed to.
[00:55:25] Brendon: Start using some of those biases that we hold for good.
[00:55:28] James: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It’s exciting.
[00:55:35] Brendon: Yep. And then, you know, link into that. And, you know, I think, you know, um, you’re far more, uh, an Akido practice than a practitioner than I am, right. Cause I’ve done zero training in it. Um, but I’m thinking there’s, there’s a little bit of a wa a Wasi in that, around I commit to this now, or that energy’s there how do I use that to achieve what we both hope to achieve or what we all hope to achieve as opposed to, you know, the opposite, which I’ve been in many times, myself as well around, I don’t like this, that I’m in at the moment. I just don’t like it. And it’s almost like Providence shows up to show you how much you don’t like it and it just keeps whacking you until you realize this is not the spot you’re meant to be in, move along, go down the line, go for that thing, or do the brave thing. Walk across America as opposed to.
[00:56:31] James: There’s another, when you said that, that arose in my mind, this, um, this piece of wisdom, I read in a book by Carlos Castanada, and he says that anything is one of a million paths.
And therefore you must always keep in mind that a path it’s only a path. And if you feel you shouldn’t follow it, you must not stay with it under any conditions. And to have such clarity, you’ve got to lead a disciplined life because then you’ll know that a path it’s only a path and there’s no affront to yourself or to others in dropping what your heart tells you to do.
Right. But it has to be free of fear of ambition, that decision. And if you look at this, does the path have heart? You know, if there’s no shame in trying a path again and again, but once you realize, ah, this is not right. You’ve got to get off it. And that’s a scary, scary thing, you know? So when we look at as coaches, um, you try never to unravel something.
You can’t repackage at the end of the hour. Right. But when you’re having someone have a realization that, you know what, I no longer want to do this high paying job, I want to do this thing, or I want to shift here or shift there. There are considerations around that, that as a coach, you want to have your counterpart explore.
Um, so it’s this balance again, uh, and it’s, it’s a poetic balance, I think because it’s, how do you help them to realize they have choice? They have agency and autonomy, and they can make these decisions, but still respect the constraints that they’re in. Um, They also have probably mortgages or bills or other things.
I mean, it’s, it’s not, uh, you know, I I’ve perhaps verged towards the hippie side and some, some aspects, but it’s not that these are pragmatic decisions that need to be made, which I think are well advised to be guided by these ideals. But you still have to have these pragmatic things in place, but know that a path is only a path, you know, and choose ones that have heart.
[00:59:03] Brendon: Yeah. I think, you know, with those difficult decision points, um, it’s, it’s where that assumption testing can come into play. You know, I, I was working permanently in, uh, in the public service and thinking about leaving and not sure about it. And someone said, why are you staying Brendon, a coach who I was just having a, we were at a networking event, uh, went up and spoke to them in like, how are you?
And I’m like, yeah, a bit frustrated. And they go, why I go, I don’t want my job. I’m thinking about leaving and go, oh, what, what’s keeping you there? I went, oh, no job security. And the super’s good and really common reflection. And this coach said to me, just, you know, people work their entire lives outside of the public sector and still have superannuation right. Brendon. And I was like,
[00:59:52] James: oh yeah, that’s right. Yeah.
[00:59:56] Brendon: That’s a good point. So you’re going to work for the next, you know, 30, 40 whatever years it was because the super’s good are you? And I went, no, I don’t think I am like, I think that’s really helped test that assumption for me and say, now a new path appears and I can commit to that and then stuff, we’ll start helping to create that future.
[01:00:17] James: Yeah. And, and that’s that’s to, you know, you look at whatever the path is, um, that you’re on. Try and try again to find the, the energy there. But once you realize that it’s not right, then that’s when you start to move. Um, and it’s not an affront to that path.
It’s just saying no, I’m ready for a different path, or I’m ready to recommit myself to the path I’m on and find the energy mind deep and find the energy there for me again. And either one of those is a really valid option, but it’s an option you have to do with clarity.
[01:00:59] Brendon: Good insights. Well, thank you for your time today, James.
How do people connect? If they want to hear more? See more, learn more.
[01:01:06] James: Yeah, look Right now the best way to connect with me is via my LinkedIn profile. Um, you can just, you know, if you, if you’re on LinkedIn, you can just type in my name, James Samana, um, and I’ll pop up. Um, if you’re not, you can Google me and then put in LinkedIn and my LinkedIn profile will pop up and there’s a, a great way to connect with me that way.
Um, and we can, we can go from there. I really like, um, yeah, I, I love this role of coaching. I love the role of facilitation and I love the role of training as well, you know, workshops and learning interventions, but any of those are, are things that I’d be more than happy to have discussions about.
[01:01:48] Brendon: Awesome.
And, uh, you know, that passion shines through as well. So I’ve definitely heard it today in. I would encourage people to connect if they want to experience more of it. So thank you.
[01:02:01] James: Oh, thanks so much, Brendon. Really appreciate it.