Amanda Horne joins Brendon Le Lievre to discuss how she found coaching 18 years ago, loves what she does and is deeply focussed on reflective practice.
Amanda shares how she uses her skills as a coach, coach supervisor and volunteer. Amanda discusses how asking teenagers coaching questions can get them to open up and focus on who they want to be in the future.
You can connect with Amanda through LinkedIn, email info@amandahorne.com.au or through her website https://www.amandahorne.com.au/.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon: Hello, and welcome to the coach conversations podcast, the podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. Today’s guest is Amanda Horne. And as always. I’m your host, Brendon Le Lievre. Welcome Amanda.
[00:00:16] Amanda: Hi, Brendon.
[00:00:20] Brendon: Really been looking forward to our, our conversation and getting to hear a bit about your story as a coach. So. And how did coaching become a part of your life?
[00:00:33] Amanda: Well, uh, it started back in maybe 1999 could have been 2000. I was on a leadership program. I worked with EY then and in that leadership program, Five days face-to-face. And back in those days, the facilitator was conscious that when we all went back to work, would we remember anything, you know, what can, what can you remember after five days and how are you going to learn and grow taught us the GROW model?
You know, the famous GROW model and so I remembered that, and that was really interesting. Why I enjoyed that is that for the years before that working in EY, I loved the mentoring, I loved working with people, helping them to grow. What happened next? This is where coaching came in is might’ve been 2000, 2001, the top partners in EY were getting executive coaching.
And I had friends in HR and I was. Kind of some interested what’s this about? And then they said, oh, we’re going to go and learn a bit about it. And then I got jealous and you’re learning about coaching, what is this thing? And then I’ll come and make the guy. Um, so I’m one of his I’ll, I’ll introduce you to the guy who’s the coach. And he runs a company. And so this friend of mine in HR introduced me to John Matthews. Now some of your listeners, some of our listeners might know John Matthews who’s been in the field for a long time. Um, um, I’m trying with the Institute of Executive Coaching. I see it had a slightly different name, then he’s one of the starters of that company. So here we are on some floor in a building in Sydney, meeting John Matthews, who’s coaching all the partners. Um, and he said, I run training courses and here’s how we run it. And so my partner my business partner and I, now we interview everyone first because we only want people who are in business to come coaching.
This is the Australian Institute of coaching. I said, I’d like an interview and said, I’ve just interviewed you come do our course. It could have been 2002, 2000. It was probably 2002. That meeting was so they ran three levels then, and I did all three levels of coaching in September, 2002. And I loved it.
I felt like I was in my element, loved everything about it. And so then in 2003, so I planned, I planned my exit and at the same time, now this is relevant to people listening here in Canberra at the time. I’d been in Canberra two years, I moved from Sydney. I was conscious of just one department that was introducing coaching. One department introduced coaching to SES that’s the senior executive service level only. So I could see that it was going to grow on you from my experience with EY that private sector was always ahead. So I thought, what if the private sector is teaching us coaching in 99, 2000 and bringing this in another private sector.
I could see that it was growing. So I lift EY in 2003 to start my coaching practice. And that was 18 years ago. And there wasn’t much coaching then. So I did a bit of other things, but at the time, um, of hand, my practice of mine, just coach. Yeah. So it was, um, I never set out to look for it. I just kept following my energy to something that I think a lot about with my clients.
Where’s my energy. I wasn’t conscious of it then, but I could see what I was doing now that I have this lens of looking how we look through things through what we’re energized by. And I could see, why was I saying to my friend, I want to meet this guy. Why are you going on that training course? And while I actually loved the GROW modeling 99, 2000, because the facilitator brought it in, not realizing it, that this would become a famous model.
So that’s how I got into it.
[00:04:26] Brendon: Wonderful, interesting story. I think, you know, our origin stories of as coaches often, so insightful and entertaining. And as you were talking through that, I was thinking through mine, which is shorter, but, um, there were a lot of, a lot of alignments, uh, to, in a slightly different order to my own story as well.
Uh, cause I did some internal coach training when I was working with a federal government department where the, an organization had done an upskilling of internal people to then train people, to be internal coaches and my director at the time sent me on this training. I wasn’t really sure what it was and wasn’t really sure what I was going to do with it.
And. In fact, I didn’t almost didn’t remember that I’d done it. And then I went and have done further coach training also with the Institute of Executive Coaching and Leadership and, uh, You know, done all three levels there and really enjoyed that. Got to work with some amazing coaches, both facilitators and participants through that program.
And I was at the risk of speaking about moving house again, when we were moving here, I found a folder in the garage that is from that internal coach training. And, uh, I just looked through it and sort of went, oh, how did this not land at the time when I first saw it, because it makes so much sense now. And I’m, I believe that it was put together by, in an earlier version of what IECL was to become.
So, you know, I I’d already had that link before I went and did my training with them and learnt a lot more and really soaked it up. So it’s, and it was a conversation with a facilitator about a training program where we talked about a whole bunch of leadership stuff, and they sort of looked at me and said, why aren’t you doing this?
Why aren’t you out there talking about this stuff? Cause you’re passionate about it. And you know it, and you’re about to have a great answer to that question. Let me go and think about it now. You know, here I am.
[00:06:39] Amanda: I do wonder where that spark was, where this internal program, it was in a box, but I wonder whether something was lit up then something happened that when it came along again, you’re interested.
Is, was there a spark lit in some way?
[00:06:55] Brendon: I think there must have been because then when I went to level one, A little bit of insight as to how I was thinking at the time I went, because it was part of a postgraduate qualification that I was encouraged to go and investigate around performance discussion time, working in a different federal government department in.
Uh, I was working in a, in an ITdiscipline at the time and my manager said, just go and do like, what do you want to do that for training? I said, I’ll just go and do the next level of whatever the best practice framework was, um, for that work area. And, and I remember he looked at me and he said, Brendon, look, you can do that but there’s more out there for you go and look at management and leadership. And I sorta thought at the time, okay, well go and have a look. And I went and had a look at MBAs and worked out very quickly, why people would want to do them, but they weren’t for me to do. And then I found this leadership qualification and IECL formed a part of it.
So let’s do that. And at least if nothing else, I’ll get an industry certificate that, um, that is linked to this thing. And I walked into IECL level one and thought to myself three days on telling people how to do what they need to do. How are they going to drag this out? That was my mindset walking in.
And up until that point, I hadn’t really known what I wanted to do. I just enjoyed working with people. I enjoyed conversations. I liked to learn and I would like to the conditions that came with working in federal government, that was kind of my four markers for success, but I’d kind of do anything. I get a bit of project management, did a bit of IT stuff, but you know, did, uh, some change coordination did some HR policy. Cause I really didn’t know what I wanted to be when I grew up and I didn’t get to morning tea on day one. And I thought to myself, this is what I want to do. This is it. I found it. So now I just have to go and build it and make it happen. And, um, yeah, it, it really did catch me really quickly, uh, in that, in that first sort of training program and, now I’m here how did that happen? Um,
[00:09:25] Amanda: Exactly.
How did that happen? I think what’s lovely about that. Your story, my story, um, the stories of other coaches is doesn’t this mean we’re providing, or it does mean that we know we love our work. And we know we’re drawn to it. We’re not doing it because it was a job. Is it is something that we’re passionate about that then that’s what we bring to our clients when there’s the work of coaching.
But then there’s the being of coaching and every coach I know, and you know, Brendon aren’t doing it just cause I, I thought I’d pick a job, you know, I needed to do something. I really genuinely care. And that is what shapes the relationship between the coach and the client. And your story just adds to that, like the joy that you have with that, that you love this, that when you’re with your clients, you’re already coming into the meeting with something that is going to be supportive for their thinking when you’re coaching them.
[00:10:23] Brendon: You know, I think your point around energy, so true when it comes to your coaching, how does that energy that we, that we show up with as coaches? It, it influences the way the coaching session will go. Even before the person meets us at the foyer or we walk into their office or however it plays out meeting room.
Yeah. So you said that you’ve gradually built to a point where you just do coaching and I called it back. Cause I think you don’t just do coaching. You do a lot of other wonderful things as well. How does, how does that, you know, uh, cause I think that’s an interesting mindset piece around, well, you know, I do what weight do, what my energy takes me and whatever label goes on that is whatever label goes on that, but it’s where my energies at what’s how’s that true for you?
[00:11:25] Amanda: So, yeah, when I just do coaching, that was because I was remembering when you asked my story about my story, that when I started my practice, Um, after being employed for 20 years by a company to be self-employed, I needed to do other things.
There wasn’t enough coaching out back then in 2003 with one department with just SES. So I was doing other things that I was used to doing with EY and things that I started to develop myself, which is workshops and, um, things like that, hooking up with other people. So when I say I just do coaching now, no I’m thinking I really coming from, um, I don’t what, it’s what I don’t do.
I don’t do facilitation I don’t run courses. I don’t, um, I might do some co-facilitation with people when someone else is in charge and that’s in a particular role I play rather than standing up and teaching, telling advising. So don’t enjoy that anymore. It’s what I do now, when I say just coaching. I could actually call it reflective practice.
And then I do those other things and Brendan, you know, this, that, um, I’m also a coaching supervisor, but that’s reflective practice. And I like, um, uh, sometimes mentoring, um, coaches, but isn’t mentoring in that way. We’re I’m advising and teaching telling them that it’s a place for thinking for them. Um, I do volunteer work.
Um, and the volunteer work that I like to do is where I might be doing pro bono coaching. And then also like working with small groups, not team coaching. And, um, I think that, um, you know, to know a bit more about Team Coaching, the podcast, he did a little while ago with Kylie. So that’s the type of work that she does with her colleagues.
I like group coaching peer learning groups, which is when I say just coaching, I put that all in one bundle, which is reflective practice. How do you bring the small group of people together? So they reflect together and that, and my, my job isn’t to be upfront teaching telling it’s, how do you bring the group together?
So they reflect in a way, like they’re almost coaching each other, the coaching style. So I do think that I just do coaching. The other thing that I do and my Brendon, you know, I do this, I do volunteer work for a not-for-profit in south Australia and we go out with teenagers. I’ll do reflective practice with them.
I don’t, I don’t now think, am I doing work? I just can’t help myself. But ask the types of clients, the types of questions I ask clients might ask the teenagers, what’s your favorite subject at school? That’s something I’ve learned too. That’s the what’s going well, question. So for the client, what’s gone well, since we last met, what’s been going well in your work, in your team, um, with a, um, a teenager, I haven’t met it’s what’s your favorite subject, which is quite different to what you do at school. And then from the can build place to reflection when, so what do you want them to have more of in your life and why are you going to be out here? And what could you learn about yourself? So, yeah, just do coaching. I think that at the heart of coaching, I like to do that.
So that’s the work I’ll do. And I won’t do the other work where I’m not energized coming back to the energy, helping other people to think. And it’s such a long way away from the 18, 20 years ago where it’s more the expertise knowing teaching, telling. It’s not easy. The reflective practice can be quite challenging.
[00:14:45] Brendon: What a great question to be asking teenagers. What’s the difference between coaching teenagers and coaching other clients?
[00:14:57] Amanda: Well, um, most obviously that a lot of my clients have a lot more experience. Life experience I mean. So they’ve got more stories to tell. Um, I thinking there’s not well yet. Well, I kind of ask some questions like, well, in the last 20 years of your life, what did you most enjoy and what you’re like a client that’s been working for 20 years since they graduated or whatever it is is.
In fact, as I’m thinking about it, there’s not a lot of difference. I just work with someone that might only be 16 years old, can still ask or observe as I like to observe with clients. I like to see what lights them up. So you just did that. I think you’re really good at that. Is that what you think or sounds like when you’re talking about woodwork and you, how you hate science and maths, I’m thinking you were really creative.
I said that to a young man. And he kind of looked at me and you could see the spark, which is, she understands me. All I’m doing is listening to their story. So there’s no difference between working with a teenager or an adult. I’m hearing their story and noticing they’re energy and so I, coaching is, you know, it’s a process where we meet over a regular time and it can happen over a long period of time with teenagers I’m with them for a week, make them once in that there’s enough followup.
So I guess I’d do everything in a condensed. Why, which I guess the answer also makes me think out loud here with your Brendon, that you can do something with someone in a limited time, even if you’re not going to do what we have the business, which is following up with meetings, how are you going? What happened? What, what are you going to do next time? What’s been going on since our last meeting. So in a short amount of time, I can help them to think about what do you want more of in your life you already creative? So what are you going to do with that? Um, and then I stopped talking about this story. Oh, well this is what I did with my woodwork.
And this is what the teacher, and then I’ve got this assignment. Well, how are you going to do that? And so they’re walking, we’re walking and talking and they’re getting really excited about how they’re going to actually pass their subject and woodwork just because they weren’t scientific and I asked them, I said, I think you’re creative tell me about that. Oh, well, I’ll do what work. And I’m actually reflecting on the true situation. Um, or another situation which I do with anyone, which was you can’t change your past, but you can shape your future. And a teenager would say, can we talk? I just want to forget about my past. My coaching training says, you can’t forget about your past, but if you want to know, if you want to focus on your future, which is another thing I do with my coaching clients, like, what is it that you want more of? I don’t do goals. Rent. Brendan is not what is the goal, but what would, what do you want more of, so that you’d be alive. In and feel alive in a year or two with a teenager. I did that. So what is it that you do want? Cause I hope you talk, but I don’t want to talk about what you should give up. I want to know who you want to be.
And she said, well, I want to be a veterinary nurse and sort of I asked her to tell me more about. And then that hook meant, then she wanted to talk about a past, but she talked about her past differently. And as I’m telling you this story about teenagers, this is exactly the type of thing I do with adults.
But when people know what they want more of and what they’re energised by then they can talk about the problems or their past or things that work so well with a different frame and a different energy strengths-based coaching is what I do with clients and teenagers. Yeah.
[00:18:19] Brendon: We’ll come back to the, uh, no goals bit, but I’m intrigued as to how that environment, uh, works with the teenagers, you know, outside walking.
How does that influence the coaching relationship dynamic that you have with those individuals?
[00:18:40] Amanda: If only we could bottle this for the coaching we do with adults, there’s no technology, there’s no phones. There’s nothing out there and we’re walking every day and we’re living with the sun setting and the sun rising, um, with environment we’re sleeping, outdoors in fresh air physically that’s quite an amazing to do so I’m sure someone with all the science would step in here and explain why that’s good for thinking. There’s no way to go. They can’t leave. Um, they know when you arrived there, they just can’t say I’m sick of this. I’m calling my mum. I’m going there out there for eight days and they’re in a safe place.
So what this space does is a safe place for thinking. Brendon, just like when we think about our clients, is it a safe place for them? Is it a place where they feel like they can open up? Do they feel interested and engaged? Well, there’s quite a lot happening when you go for long walks in the Bush, carrying packs it’s can be challenging for them.
A lot of, a lot of those tensions in their body release. So, you know, over eight days, we can ask these questions subtley. So it’s not like a coaching session where you cram it all into an hour, an hour and a half. It can happen bit by bit over eight days. So it’s the physical environment. There’s just a very small team of them.
Um, it’s a place where there’s a lot of warmth and love and, um, And so that’s, that’s what happens out there for them. They can think freely because none of us are judging, so we’re not there to judge or measure or monitor and make them better, which really trying to encourage them. So when they go back to school, they’re thinking a bit differently, eight days of reflective practice, you know, I just think how lucky is that for them when our clients get an hour, an hour and a half, um, with distractions and haven’t, and I haven’t had a chance to walk, right?
There’s a release of tension in their body. They are the types of things that go on that just help them to think a bit more clearly because they’re away from all this other external things that, um, they’re in a completely different environment. And I think that sometimes can’t for some clients thing, just in a one hour practice with you, or may have reflective practice, it’s a completely different environment.
Do you have that um, Brendon, where were they when they come in? They’re quite a different person when they go out. Do you have, yeah. What, what’s the experience like? What have you noticed happens to clients?
[00:21:00] Brendon: It really often, I mean, I had a session like last week, with the person, um, they came in and they really flustered.
They’re a little bit late and they’re like, I’ve just got to check this on my phone. And I got to write this note down. It’s like, it’s okay. Like, just get, get that done, get your things in order. That’s not a problem at all. And then over the course of the conversation, they were like, this has been really therapeutic actually.
And I sort of said, well, Yeah. Coaching is often thought of as being quite therapeutic, but I just need to remind you that it’s not therapy and they’re like, eh, I don’t expect you to step, but it just being able to talk things through and sort of lay things out. Uh, and then, you know, their phone sort of was buzzing away on the table and they were I’m just going to ignore that for the moment, because I really want to be here and be present.
And, um, Yeah. And then they just, they left and they seemed a lot, a lot calmer, but also back to the energy thing that they seem to energy was, was different. It was more intentional, which is, I think what I kind of liked seeing a lot with the people that I work with is. Yeah. It’s not so much whether they get done or don’t get done, what they set out to achieve.
It’s like, what’s your intent? What are you trying to create here? And, you know, the better your intent is, the more likely it is that you’re going to get there. But I think it’s quite interesting when people come back and they said, look, I have, I know I agreed to do blah at the end of last session, but I really thought about it.
And. And I’ve decided that’s not actually what I want to do. And here’s the reasons why, and here’s where I want to go instead, because that is better for me. And I’m like, well, I’m pleased that you recognize that in the time we spent together, as opposed to, you know, potentially working another 20, 30, 40 whatever years and then going, actually, I didn’t enjoy any of that at all.
Um, and, and so through the coaching, they were able to just do those little things differently, which changes the way they perform, show up, relax, engage all those things as well. So
[00:23:26] Amanda: I’m thinking that your clients are with you and you’re doing something you’re doing coaching but there’s more than that and that’s the being, who are you? There’s something about who you are because coaching, isn’t just a whole lot of techniques intellectually learn that for your clients to be leaving those meetings with that, just a technical expert exercise you’ve provided.
So I wonder what is, what is it that you know about yourself, that in that environment, it makes it that place for them to be able to leave with an aha or a different insight, or more perspective, something about you, who you are.
[00:24:01] Brendon: It’s really, really interesting that you say that actually, because I’m currently doing a little bit more coach training, uh, with the Global Coaching Institute and, um, As with all coach training, there’s a requirement for there to be some coaching and so there’s an opportunity to be coached, which I, I jump at sort of every, every moment I get, and in one of those sessions, which just happened over the weekend, that’s when the training was run. I had this realization that I need to stop doing coaching and to start being a coach. And, and that when coaching had been going well, I was more in that being space, as opposed to that doing space.
I just think that’s interesting that, you know, that showed up for me on Friday or Saturday night. And now here we are on Tuesday afternoon and that’s being played back to me. So it’s intriguing how this coaching stuff works right. As I’m sure you know, so I think we’ve been reflecting on, well, what is, what does that mean to, to be being a coach and, and who is it that I am when I’m, when I’m being a coach and how do I bring in now more of my values?
Because yes, there is some technical component, but it’s diminishes over time. I find as you get more and more comfortable with just creating the space or just asking, you know, the next question, or just letting people process and slow down when. And that isn’t what we get very much of it sort of got to be the next thing gotta be here, gotta be there, gotta do this, gotta answer an email. And that pace is, is really, really fast. So yeah, I think part of the being is about knowing who you are now, what are your individual values? And, and I, I have a huge drive to create potential and pursue potential. Um, I, I think that there’s a, there’s a caring for the people that shows up. And I like to think that my sense of humor shows up humor is a big value for me, is can I use humor appropriately? Which I, you know, I’m pleased these in the International Coaching Federation core competencies, you know, appropriately is the important bit, but it’s in there right. And so, you know, it’s okay for it to be conversational and for people to laugh and for people to share and for people to pause and being able to bring that into what I get to be, as opposed to what I get to do is something that I am very, very thankful for it, you know, the end of the day or the end of the week, when I get to reflect on what did I get to achieve today?
Cause it’s a really privileged position to be, to find yourself in and you meet people and you say, you know, what do you want more of? And they just lay it all out there in front of you. And you think, man, that, that showed up quick, that trust is pretty high there. Yeah, that’s how it shows up for me. How does it show up for you?
[00:27:20] Amanda: A lot of those things that you said, um, values, beliefs.
So who am I? Um, how, um, I’m really conscious of what it is that I bring in. I know it’s what I believe in and what I care about. Um, for example, with, um, clients, when I meet them the first time. I absolutely lay this out. And I say, I’m not here to measure, monitor, judge. You, you not having conversation. I’m here to provide the space for you to think.
Um, I’m not trying to get you anywhere. Um, and, and you’re the expert in, in your life. So there, one of the things I’m bringing as some qualities that I have, which she’s, it’s almost like. You know, I wouldn’t judge a friend, so I like friendliness. I like friendship. I like teamwork. I like working with that’s the quality in me there.
The, the, the values that most energized me teamwork is that so I’m bringing this teamwork approach. Um, not that I explain what I’m saying, you know, don’t tell them that I’m doing. How it comes out is I’m here to help you to think I’m often actually say to clients, it’s so good to meet you to the first time. It’s so good to meet you. And I love my work, so here’s a bit about me. I love my work. So there’s love as well in the sense that I’m bringing the love and warmth into the meeting. Not, um, in, in that I love my work and I, and I, and it’s been very interesting when clients I met them for the first time when we set up the relationship, I said, that’s so good that I, that you love your work.
Cause I thought to love my work, trying to be really good to learn about that. Or people just say, it’s so lovely to be with someone who loves their work. So it just reminds me why is so important to come from our values. So the love of my work means I’m bringing in a natural energy. I don’t have to try. I am just so excited to be with clients.
I love being with them. I love thinking of them as if they’re a team member. We’re equals in this. So there’s a friendliness, I’m friendly, and I like, and, uh, particularly during COVID, there’s been a lot more friendly, a lot more informality because people are connecting over zoom differently. And, um, not that I’m unfriendly face-to-face, but there’s been a level of informality in coaching meetings. So it’s been very, I’ve been a very, really good place for people to think. And just for people to be out, I’m talking to a human being, I’m talking to my coach and I’m letting them, what do you want to talk about today? I what I want to talk about what I’ve been doing with my kids, with mychild, and my grandfather and his grandfather, I can, let’s talk about your child and your grandfather for about 10 minutes.
Sure. Here’s some ideas. Um, but there’s a friendliness there. Um, so. Yeah. So I, I think that, um, yeah. Like being there. I love listening to people. And also it’s because I don’t like telling and teaching. I don’t like telling people what to do. Then it’s a lot easier for me to draw out the questions from them and to help them think, and I love tuning into them and I don’t know what quality that is, but I just love using my intuition and sensing something’s going, coming up.
And my question comes from there. So I dunno what type of being that is, but there’s some, there’s nothing intellectual going on. There’s not a process ok now I have to do step three, step four, there’s just something that flows. Um, yeah. Yeah. So a lot of our values. Yeah. I think what you and I sharing Brendon, what are our strengths? What are our values? Where is our energy? And our energy comes into the meeting. If we’re energized, that can have an influence on someone. And I think that that came home to me quite, um, obviously when a client said. Ah, this is so refreshing because relationships at work, they’re not really great, you know, it’s not a nice place to work in.
So I think, oh, I kind of forgotten that. I forgotten that it can be like that. Whereas maybe client meeting, I know they’re going to leave, having been in, in a warm, encouraging environment and it can be special for them. If back at work, it’s not a very nice place for them.
[00:31:30] Brendon: Yeah. Intuition, which is, I’m guessing where the coaching without goals bit comes from. And the first step of GROW obviously is a goal. So how have you, has your coaching changed and shifted and transformed over 18 years to go from the goal of GROW to where you are now?
[00:31:57] Amanda: So I use different language and I include the goal, the G word. So when I meet with clients, ask them,
send this question to them and. Well, the theme that you might want to bring into coaching, um, what, what, what’s something that’s on your mind, that’d be a goal, but it could just be something doesn’t and I say it doesn’t have to be a goal. It could just be something you want to head towards. It’s something you want to think about.
So, um, often use the word theme. What’s something that’s on your mind. What would you like to talk about more? So then I’ll ask them, what do you want from that? Some do say to them, look, if you want to set a goal, then absolutely we can. But the pressure’s off, you don’t have to have a goal. You might just want to use this time to think about whatever’s in front of you now, in which case, I’ll say, what would you want to be walking away with or feeling or sensing when you leave this meeting?
And, um, sometimes clients say, um, I just, um, one time had a really good word for it. I just want to, yeah. I just want to get a bit of clarity. So here we not have, we don’t have a goal, so we’re not going to meet it. So where’s your clarity on a scale of one to 10 and what do you want by the end of the meeting there we’ve got a theme. So both my client and I know that somewhere clarity’s, but it’s not a specific, it’s not a SMART goal. It’s not specific. We’ll never know we’ve got that, but they will know. And so is that okay? And so then we’re heading in a direction. So I now often think with clients or which direction you’re heading in, so this is going to wander somewhere and somewhere out of that, there’ll be clarity, but it’s not a goal, but something might pop up.
So that’s what I do. And I don’t when I actually, when I say that the client’s like, oh good. Cause I don’t have a goal. Do I have to have a goal? You don’t have to have. Just, this is time to think, whatever you want to talk about today. And when we met again, you’ll have a completely different topic because so much changes between meetings.
What do you want to talk about then when I do I forget to do this, sometimes I probably should do it more often. Um, and would you like to come away with actions because we’re going to do some action planning or not? I forget that, um, sometimes I’ll pick it up in the language and I think, oh, I better ask the question.
I can see the quite action oriented and them, I say, do you want to be taking actions away from this meeting? which is one of the GROW model aspects, uh, because if you do one concept, absolutely. I’ll do. And I remember this quite vividly because I really were an action oriented person. Yep. I want to go with actions.
Good. So we made sure. I said, okay, now what actions do you think you’d like to take away and did that in the last 10 minutes? And then they came up with all the actions. Apart from that, I ask people, what are you thinking feeling? What are you taking away? Um, and sometimes I say something that’s quite unspecific like I’m taking away that I’ve got a bit of sense of, but if someone would look at that meeting and said, but where are their actions? What if my client doesn’t want to take away actions? And they just want a thinking space, the actions will come later. So I’ll keep it kind of match where they are and I’m finding a lot of clients are like that. They want the thinking space. And then the thinking beyond the coaching is where actions might arise and sometimes do one or two actions. That’ll that’ll come up now.
[00:35:33] Brendon: That’s just reflecting as you say that, that, you know, I don’t ask whether people want actions either, but I probably mandate not mandate, that’s too strong, a word I assume that they’re going to want to. And so I’m, I’m often, you know, what are you going to do differently and what will be the result of that? What will the impact of that be? And they may be looking at me, you know, the opposite to the example you shared going I know what I’m going to do. I don’t need to action plan it and write it down. So I quite like that question. Yeah. What do you want to come away with? Or do you want actions as a result of this? Or do you just want to think and reflect and let it all out and then move on to whatever comes next on something for me to play with.
So thank you.
[00:36:24] Amanda: It’s just intuitively if someone wants clarity then, like you just have to pick up things where I actually, it’s hard to tell.
I think we all know, we all know that we don’t have a script of questions. We just know, for some reason a question will pop up. We don’t know where it comes from. That’s our intuition. Like, why am I asking that question right now?
[00:36:43] Brendon: I would like to chat a little bit about supervision.
Obviously, it’s something that I benefit from and it’s something that I wish I’d found a little earlier in my, in my coaching career or, you know, even being clearer about what I would bring to supervision or why I would go to supervision as well. So I think it, while we’ve got you and you’ve got supervisory super visionary, what’s the correct version of that experience.
Let’s talk about that. What, what, what made you step into becoming a coach supervisor to begin with?
[00:37:22] Amanda: I did my supervision training in 2014. So something must’ve happened in 20 13, 20 12. I, I can only imagine that it must’ve been growing as an interest area. And again, Um, to try, I’m actually, I’ve signed up for it in 2013. That was a program that started at the beginning of the year and ended at the end of the year with the, with the UK company, Coaching Supervision Academy, something, something sparks my attention.
I guess intellectually, I’d probably say that I’d heard that supervision was growing, but this was something that professional coaches should have. And I didn’t take it as assured, it was, I’d love to, I’d love to do that. I’d love to be able to have like another coach that could help me think. And also was, that was 2013-14 started my practice entity and being coaching, and also Ereflected my coaching practices have changed a lot over those years. So it was much more this style. Um, and I was wondering what’s my next level of coach training going to be? I thought, well, why not do coach supervision? Because it might be that I can then provide a space for coaches to reflect. And that would be a good service to provide to the coaching community.
Um, and also I’ll, I’ll learn something new within the coaching areas. So I did do a little bit of additional coaching with the IECL coach training that is for the IECL supervision, opened up something new in the curriculum. Really interesting, particularly. CSA is the company coaching supervision academy.
Their strap line is who you are, is how you coach. I thought now that’s interesting, who I am is how you coach and this program was about understanding who we are. So we learned a few models, the seven eyed model, and or maybe the seven eyed model, a couple of other models that provide structure to supervising, but we spent all year learning about ourselves.
And even when we went into. Um, triads, where one, would they a supervisee? One’s a supervisor one’s, um, observing. We weren’t technically measured on our supervision skills. When we come out of that triad, we then reflect on what went on in us. What was that like as a supervisor, when you were practicing supervisor, where were you caught? What was comfortable? Uncomfortable? So we weren’t, it was not skills training. So over that year, we learned a lot about ourselves. And I said to the facilitator, Leanne, I said, this isn’t the course for supervisors. This is a course for every human being, because everything I’m learning here is going to help me with every single relationship because understand more about my beliefs and my triggers.
And why might trip over one of the things that came up. That I learned in supervision when I was learning, the supervisor was judgment would often come up that I would make, I would judge plants and it would hold me back and I could feel the tension in my body and it had done catch me in a way that I couldn’t supervise because I’d be making judgements.
So we explored that. So I learned to notice when I become judgmental and work on letting that go. So supervision training, um, and I’m telling you about it, but also how to answer your question, how I came across it, I would have absolutely been drawn to it. It was not a should. And for years I’ve learned that there’s so much training out there, Brendon so many webinars. And I learned that if I felt this pool, and as I’m talking to you, um, uh, moving like a moving forward and my chest is moving forward. Like my, like I want to, I wanted to do this where sometimes I look at webinars and I feel like stepping back. I absolutely felt that I wanted to go in it. And so I guess that might’ve been intuition.
That’s why I got into it, but I also did want to do what can I do more than coaching? So the stretch for me is, and how do I create a reflective space for coaches? And that would be quite different. So it was kind of a curiosity there, um, I’ve since learned my coaching supervision skills have really helped me understand that reflective, practicing coaching is really useful.
So sometimes I don’t know whether I’m supervising or coaching anymore. It’s reflective practice. So, yeah.
[00:41:38] Brendon: Thank you for sharing that. Cause I think it defines as well your approach to supervision, for new coaches that are wondering what’s this supervision. Amanda and Brendon are talking about what would I even bring to supervision? I do a bit of, you know, self-reflective practice. Um, what would you say to them? What are the sort of things people bring to supervision?
[00:42:12] Amanda: So that might be different supervisors that do different things on us and supervisor can also mentor, um, they can mentor, um, What I’d be bringing. What I’d be asking coaches to bring is, think about your coaching experiences, do some reflection on what happened in your coaching. What were the situations? Who were you, what were you noticing, thinking, feeling about yourself? Um, So in the supervision that I do, we don’t solve the problems. So it wouldn’t be like, you’d come to me, Brendon to say, you’re trying to coach this person. And you tried this technique. And what would you do in the supervisor? May, would I try it?
Why don’t you try that? And he, and I’ll tell you how to use that model. I might be asking you what was going on in that client situation. What were you comfortable with? What were you uncomfortable with? What was happening to you? How are you? And in fact, what happens in supervision as we bring the here and now into supervision, and this can feel quite strange to people with what you might be telling their story about this tricky client that you’ve had.
And I might be saying right now, how you feeling right now? And what CSA says, coaching supervision academy says is bringing in the here and now what’s going on, right? And also it’s. So in you think about how you’re feeling, thinking, reflecting, um, you make sense of you in that. So it’s not about you going away thinking, oh, I didn’t use the GROW model. I should have done that differently. Or I’ve just learned a new technique. It’s you’ve learned something about yourself that impacted you in that relationship with your client. And also I’ll be getting you to think about what was going on between you and your client, what was going on in the organisation. So your coaching in that department, what’s going on in that department or in that client department that affecting you, and you might say actually there’s some big, tricky things going on. And I know that department and, um, that was really affecting how I was able to coach because those things going on there with, um, um, with that culture. So then, then you can explore how the system might be affecting you anyway. Um, it’s really hard to talk Brendon about supervision is really hard to talk about coaching because it’s so, so I don’t think a coach would probably anyone listening to your podcast would really get a proper sense of what it’s like, other than it’s a place for you to reflect.
Just like, so any of the coaches out there and Brendon, it gives you a place to reflect on yourself. Where you learn something about you. So when you go back into coaching, it’s not that you’ve learned a new technique, although I can’t speak for all supervisors, I go into supervision. So I have a supervisor so there are times where just as advisable say, I can tell you something about this. What goes on here in the drama. Um, you could be aware of that, just like, just be aware of that. And that could be going on for your client to so often then might give some tips. But they wouldn’t be lecturing in a way. So different supervisors will have different way of working.
It is hard to talk about. It’s hard to talk about something that’s just doing Brendon. You’ve been a supervisee. So maybe you could explain supervision from a supervisee, whether you’ve been in groups. I know you’ve been in groups. I think that they used to be some groups some years ago.
Talk about your experience that might explain supervision through your experience?
[00:45:44] Brendon: Yeah. So, I mean, I have similar challenges when people say what’s coaching and how will you help me as a coach? I pretty much say to them, look, I can explain it to you and you won’t be any clearer on it, or have you got 10 minutes? Let’s just coach for 10 minutes and at some point in that 10 minutes, they go, oh, that’s a good question or I’m thinking differently about that or hadn’t noticed that before that’s coaching, like that’s, that’s what I’m working on here. So maybe if you’re unsure about supervision, it could be worth checking it out. What, what I appreciate from supervision, whether it’s individual or group or, um, part of a training program or something that I’ve sought out myself is, is, uh, feels like, you know, as a coach, there’s, what’s happening on the dance floor and then you sort of watching from the balcony in supervision, I feel like you go another balcony higher and you get to see both levels of it. And, and, you know, I think recently one of the greatest insights I had was I walked away from a coaching session and there was some stuff happening internally for me. And I was thinking, I don’t think I necessarily did my best coaching there, that’s something for me to unpack and look at in supervision. And what I noticed, um, was that, you know, the client’s system, what was happening in their organization came into the coaching session and influenced both of us in that situation and then it traveled again into the supervision session, it showed up and there were elements of it again in that supervision session. And so I could start to see the parallels between those three different completely different environments, because I wasn’t in the client’s physical domain when I was coaching. Um, and they weren’t in there either. They were in an independent building and then coaching virtually. Uh, supervision was done virtually. So neither of us were in the same sort of physical space. And yet these, these elements showed up across the three. And once I recognized that I could think about it differently.
I could be with it differently as well. I think as well as opposed to trying to do something with it, it’s just like, oh, that’s, that’s there. Okay. If that’s there, what do I need to do to be with it differently and not have it influence my coaching as dramatically? Cause it’s still gonna show up. So it’s still going to be there.
So, you know, I think. Yeah, like you say, one of the things I love about this work is I learn about myself in pretty much, if not every coaching conversation I have or I learn about others and how they think about things. Well, that’s interesting. I wouldn’t have done that, that way and good thing I didn’t give advice because that wouldn’t have been even close to what I was thinking of being able to do. You know, and then in the supervisory context is it’s even deeper again, I’m like, ah, that’s that showing up for me? Or that’s how that’s influencing or, you know, what do I do differently next time the system appears and if it’s showing up for me, then it must be showing up for the counterpart. What would happen differently if I called that out or explored that with them or. Yeah. So that’s kind of what I take away from this is that extra level of thinking around. Okay, well that happened. Um, why did it happen? How did it happen for me? What was the influence of it happening and what would I like to be different next time? How will I respond differently next time, based on who I am rather than. No. Amanda said the next time that happens, ask these three questions and you’ll be fine. Cause it just, that wasn’t what happened and that wouldn’t work either.
So hearing that, how does that land for you?
[00:49:56] Amanda: Yes. Very good. I heard you talk about being and doing again. So you talked a lot about how you are, who you are and you said, and so it’s about who you are not about the doing. So you use the B word and the do word. And I was thinking then that when you were saying, you learn about yourself, this is where I found the link with coaching.
So if we get this experience of what it’s like, when you go to supervision, when I go to supervision, we’re learning more about ourselves and where our supervisors are asking us to explore ourselves. Then I found the courage to do that type of work with clients, to help them to explore who they are. They might say, you know, I’ve got a difficult boss or I’m in my thinking, well, who are you in.
So at what are the techniques to manage a difficult boss? Listen, look it up on the internet, the answers there. I’ve got, I do a lot more of helping them to explore what’s going on in there or what’s going on in the system. Like you said, you said in your supervision, your conscious, more conscious, consciously aware of your client and you were in a system.
So I will ask my clients, this is coaching counterparts questions I’ve learned in supervision because if they can see more, like you said the balcony, What’s your experience of this situation with your boss? When you reflect on what’s, what’s going on in the department, how do you feel about what’s going on in the department?
How do you feel about the direction? And then if they talk about their experience of it, that’s not being up on the balcony. And then when they come back to the topic of the relationship with their boss or something, they come back with a different perspective. And this is what happened with one of my clients where they had a really difficult situation.
And I was asking questions like that and what happened was the problem they brought to coaching completely changed because I was asking them to explain their experience. What’s that like to now run two branches and you used to have one, what’s that like to do that with these things going on in your personal life, what would your kids say that all of these things, and then I realized the problem they had was not their problem, it was a system problem. Because I was asking their experience. What’s that like, and now, but it’s extricate themselves. They thought they had a problem, had to be coached him, you know, not coached, but someone’s got to coaching for, they realized they weren’t the problem. There was a problem in the system.
So they’re the types of things I’ve learned in supervision where the questions that are asked of us, of you Brendon have me when our supervisors get us to think about what’s going on inside out are really useful questions. And so I’ve, um, I’ve now become much more conscious of asking clients what’s your emotion right now?
Because I’ve learned to be aware of my emotions. I was getting quite angry in the coaching. This is a good story that I wasn’t angry at my client, but I was quite angry with the situation, my client, like I was going to become her buddy in that, which is I’m angry about that. But I had learned in supervision, notice your emotions. So I was up in the balcony thinking I’m angry, she’s got every right to be angry with that situation. I’m angry too. And then I thought, I wonder if my anger now is affecting my ability to know what question to ask next. So as soon as I just let the anger dissipate, because I was about to say, I agree with you, that’s a terrible situation. Then when I let that go, because through supervision, I’ve learned to know my emotions. I let it go and then a completely different thought came in. I’m so glad that in supervision, I’ve learned to be aware of things like emotions, because I, I would not have been conscious that I was going, yeah. Terrible situation shouldn’t happen like that. I agree with you. What are you going to do about that? You can do that.
[00:53:31] Brendon: Yep. You end up in a different spot completely as a result and often so much more, so much more impact from, from doing that rather than sort of yeah. Let’s just be angry together.
[00:53:46] Amanda: Yeah, that’s right. So I think, and I think that, yeah, I learned that in supervision. It’s good. These little things that come to mind in the middle of coaching, I’ve learned that I can’t, I can’t have this emotion now. I can see it. Um, but I can’t, I can’t let it take over. Um, yeah. Yep. Hmm. This has been a lovely conversation. Brendon. I’m enjoying this conversation cause we’re both, we’re both coaching. We’re both in supervision. We can share our experiences about this.
[00:54:16] Brendon: Yeah, no, I, I agree. Thank you for contributing to the system.
That is the lovely conversation, right? It takes two people to do that. No anger on this end today at all, it was only surprised when you said that you are angry is anger is not an emotion that I’m sure you feel it obviously, but it’s not one that I think would be in your top 10 emotions felt. So it must’ve been a good situation for you to get angry about it.
Um, particularly you spoke about warm and caring and all those things earlier about the values you bring to coaching and I’m guessing therefore supervision. Well, if people are interested in knowing more about you and what you do and what supervision is, how would they reach out to you? What’s the best way to get in touch.
[00:55:04] Amanda: Um, my, uh, my email website, my name, um, yeah, Amanda Horne. Um, I suppose they’ll see that in the pod, the spelling of my name .com dot au Amandahorne.com.au, the websites. Then, then the details,
[00:55:24] Brendon: the.
[00:55:28] Amanda: Yeah. Yeah. It’s not hard to work out the email address. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Great series that you’re doing here. I’m looking forward to hearing your, the next few. I know you’re interviewing a few others, not interviewing, having conversations with others. I’m looking forward to the next ones.
[00:55:47] Brendon: Yup. And if people are interested, drop me a line as well.
I’ll put that email on there about being a guest. Cause I’m keen to connect with anyone that’s passionate about coaching or all things, anything coaching really, and having a bit of a chat or a conversation about it. So if you want to sit in the figurative virtual chair that Amanda’s been sitting in the last hour, let me know and we’ll make that work as well.
But thank you, Amanda. Thank you enjoy the rest of your afternoon and, uh, looking forward to connecting the next time we do.
[00:56:20] Amanda: Thank you. Goodbye everyone.