In this episode of Coach Conversations, Brendon Le Lievre is joined by Damien Hughes for a thoughtful and honest exploration of what great coaching really looks like in practice.
Together, we discuss the role of curiosity and silence, and why coaching is a core leadership capability rather than a specialist skill.
The conversation dives into powerful themes including:
- Generative listening and self-awareness
- The role of presence in coaching conversations
- Working with uncertainty and not knowing
- Letting go of outcomes and agendas
- Navigating self-doubt and questions of value
- When, and how, to share models and frameworks
Brendon and Damien also explore the tension many coaches experience between wanting to add value and learning to trust the client’s thinking process.
This is a reflective, practical, and encouraging conversation for coaches, leaders, and anyone interested in developing deeper listening and more meaningful conversations.
Damien’s Bio:
Damien Hughes established Enlighten Leadership in 2019, after 16 years in the University sector, to share his passion for learning. Damien has translated his leadership experience into powerful coaching conversations.
He has facilitated leadership and management programs since 2017. His facilitation and coaching approach draws on adult learning principles that empower people to navigate their learning experience. His coaching encourages a critical reflective practice necessary for growth. He synthesises theory with practice in meaningful and adaptable ways. And while qualifications are not everything, it’s nice to know that Damien’s passion has emerged from a dedication to learning.
Qualifications:
- Master of Business Leadership | Bachelor of Business Studies | Cert IV Training & Assessment A
- Associate Certified Coach (ACC ICF)
- IECL Executive Leadership coach (Level 2)
- Neuroleadership Brain Based Conversational Skills
- AGSM Adaptive Leadership program
Connect with Damien via:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/damienjhughes/
Website: https://www.enlightenleadership.com/
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Brendon Le Lievre: Hello and welcome to the Coach Conversations podcast. The podcast where coaches have conversations about all things coaching. I’m Brendan Le Lievre, and today I’m joined by Damien Hughes. Damien, how did you find coaching, or how did it find you?
[00:00:22] Damien Hughes: I love that question because it, it takes me back to, uh, I guess, you know. Maybe a point in time where I wanted to change in my career. And I think my experience of coaching was probably almost 15 years ago. And, um, I was part of this sort of future leaders program in org in the organization. It was an intensive program.
[00:00:46] Damien Hughes: And included as part of the program was this one-on-one coaching session. So it’s kind of like my first time experiencing this, this notion of professional coaching and um. I was, I was impressed by the [00:01:00] coaching process, but I actually came away, ashamedly a little bit cynical, um, and perhaps a little bit jealous that this coach was being paid to essentially ask me questions.
[00:01:10] Damien Hughes: And that’s sort of how I kind of came into coaching. And I was frustrated ’cause I was, I was doing all the heavy lifting, you know, there was, these seeds of curiosity were being planted, if you like, through this process. And, um, I’d say that that experience was a bit of a spark for me. Um, and it was maybe the first lesson I got from coaching was this notion of, um, meeting the coachee where they’re at, meeting the person where they’re at, which is really what I genuinely got.
[00:01:39] Damien Hughes: And so that created, I guess if you like, an opening for me to think, well, what is this? It can’t be just simply someone. Having a conversation with me and asking me good questions. There’s something more about that. And I suppose it took me on an adventure where I was completing my, my, um, masters in leadership and [00:02:00] I had an opportunity to do two, uh, professional courses in coaching to count towards my masters.
[00:02:05] Damien Hughes: And it was through the IACL and that opened up. A much wider lens in terms of what I thought coaching was, gave me maybe some tools and that sort of stuff, but it was very much about, this is just a tool for me as a, as a leader, rather than actually this is a tool that I can actually use to provide a service to people.
[00:02:28] Damien Hughes: So how quite wasn’t quite there as a coach in that mindset, but that’s how I kind of came into it.
[00:02:34] Brendon Le Lievre: Mm, definitely useful for leaders.
[00:02:38] Damien Hughes: Yeah.
[00:02:38] Brendon Le Lievre: I think that’s, there’s great opportunity there for more leaders to take more of a coaching approach, and I’m starting to build more of that into the programs that I’m facilitating. So if they’re longer programs, I just give them enough time to have two sort of 15, 20 minute [00:03:00] conversations in pairs using the A coaching framework.
[00:03:04] Brendon Le Lievre: Um, and. The feedback’s always really positive. People are like, yeah, we want more of this coaching. We wanna do more of this coaching. So they’re seeing it too, which is nice.
[00:03:15] Damien Hughes: Yeah. I think it, I, I agree with this, and I think for me, where it leans into this notion of coaching is that it’s, it’s not this inaccessible thing. Um, I, I’m seeing it much more of this is a skillset that actually should be kind of given to everyone almost, if you like. It’s not always though, I have some special innate ability.
[00:03:37] Damien Hughes: It’s just I have some frameworks, I have some things, but it’s. I bring my authentic self to a conversation of whatever that means. Um, and that’s an interesting question itself. Um, but increasingly so I agree, it’s that people in a program need to learn this particular skill and see it as an embedded part of how they have conversations.
[00:03:59] Damien Hughes: So I, I [00:04:00] frame it as how are you being coached, like in your conversations?
[00:04:05] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, just be curious and then be quiet. It’s the quiet bit that unstick them. Usually they’re like, I have to talk. You don’t. You’re good.
[00:04:18] Damien Hughes: I think, I mean, if I picked up on that, that’s really interesting. Um, ’cause when I came into this notion of having a conversation with you, I thought, okay, what do two coaches, what’s their conversation look like together? Because this notion of holding space and that silence, the power of the silence, I thought, oh, we’re probably gonna have 45 minutes of just sitting here. Breathing. Hmm.
[00:04:49] Brendon Le Lievre: Use the space, use the silence. I remember I had a, a session during lockdown maybe, or at least working from home. My wife was [00:05:00] upstairs and the session was like the fourth or fifth one I had with this counterpart. They were really reflective. They showed up to the sessions ready to do the work. And, and they had said early on, I just want some space like to kind of get my thinking in order.
[00:05:17] Brendon Le Lievre: I’m like, beautiful, coaching’s great for that. We can do that. And I think including kind of how, how are you and what do you want to talk about today? I might’ve asked them six questions in an hour ’cause they were asking themselves questions and exploring things as well. My wife said I could do that.
[00:05:40] Brendon Le Lievre: That that looked really easy. How many questions do you think you asked? I said, oh, not many. My, uh, you know, dollar rate per question’s pretty good in that session. But so I said it’s the questions I didn’t ask that helped. ’cause there were opportunities to dive in and push and [00:06:00] check and clarify, and I didn’t ask any of those questions.
[00:06:03] Brendon Le Lievre: I held onto them and I think that’s the. A moment in my coaching where I’m like, oh, yeah, like that, that’s a, a step forward to not ask a question as opposed to like, I’ve gotta ask the question.
[00:06:20] Damien Hughes: I think we learn a lot from those closest to us around how we ch how we choose to coach. And I think early, I, I can relate to that story early in my notion of coaching. I was describing this to my wife, what this whole coaching thing is. Um, and she goes, are you kidding me? She, are you telling me you get paid to have a conversation?
[00:06:43] Damien Hughes: That’s essentially what you’re, you’re doing? I’m like, well, it sounds like that. But I’m, I’m pretty sure it’s something more than just asking a question in a moment. And, and for me, what I guess where I’ve come to with that is it’s actually the skill of the generative listening [00:07:00] that. That is at really at the, the heart of good coaching.
[00:07:04] Damien Hughes: And I, I’m, there’s days where I think I do that well, and there’s days where I know I could have done that better. But when I describe generative listening to people, I talk about it as I’m not just listening for what’s not being said in the coachee, but I’m listening for what’s not being said inside me as well.
[00:07:21] Damien Hughes: I have to deeply listen to, to what, what’s going on here for me in order that I can show up to be the best version of myself for my coachee. Yeah, I, I like that notion. Am I paid for asking questions? Probably not.
[00:07:41] Brendon Le Lievre: No. No. ’cause it is about that. Listening, and I hear you on kind of the what’s happening for me. Uh, earlier my coaching career stuff had come up and I’m like, oh, but that’s my stuff. I don’t, I don’t need to raise that. I shouldn’t be talking about that. [00:08:00] And what I’ve realized the more I’ve coached, and particularly through doing the supervisor training, is quite often that is something, as long as you offer it gently and respectfully and without attachment. I noticed that, that this is happening for me at the moment. How is that relevant or is that relevant? And more often than not, it is. It’s so, it’s not my stuff. It’s their stuff or our stuff.
[00:08:29] Damien Hughes: Yeah, that’s um. I feel I’m still learning in that space. Uh, and I think the, if we want to put a technical term around that, there’s this notion of transference and I can’t really speak to it with any sense of authority, but I’m really curious about what this actually is about. Now, maybe I can point to this whole idea of the micro, uh, the mirror neurons and the neuroscience that sits behind that.
[00:08:55] Damien Hughes: Um. There’s so much that that’s the work, that’s the hard [00:09:00] work of coaching is, is which, which is what you’re being paid for, is how you prepare yourself mentally for the conversation you’re having. ’cause, ’cause what you bring into that conversation will impact and influence, um, one, how you coach, but how people respond to you.
[00:09:15] Damien Hughes: And I, I think needing to be open and honest with your client in those moments is really important.
[00:09:31] Brendon Le Lievre: I’m, I’m just gonna step out for one second because my neighbor, of course, has decided to get the leaf blower out. I don’t know if you can hear it, but I can hear it. So I’m just gonna pause and we’ll cut this out. [00:10:00] Now the big question is, do we leave that in? Uh, we’ll find out, um, how authentic is it gonna be?
[00:10:10] Damien Hughes: I’ll leave that up. That notion, you know, we’re sitting in a cafe, I’m meant to be having a conversation. Um, and, and being present as a coach, um, isn’t giving your coachee the death stare, if you like. Um, sometimes I have found myself in a coaching conversation where we’ve paused and we’ve had to look at something going on, um, in the distance.
[00:10:41] Damien Hughes: And, and then it’s, it’s been almost that pause and that destruction has been a really interesting sort of tangent that’s taken us on a different point in the conversation. Um, yeah.
[00:10:57] Brendon Le Lievre: Yep. I did a.[00:11:00]
[00:11:02] Brendon Le Lievre: Where they wanted to meet at a cafe. And I always arm and r about that. ’cause it can either work really well or it can cause some challenges. And uh, thankfully this one went well, but the coffee came and it was super hot. And so I was like, I wonder if that’s a thing. And then it was, and then just with the way I was facing, I could see this huge storm rolling in.
[00:11:31] Damien Hughes: Oh,
[00:11:31] Brendon Le Lievre: really dark clouds and you know, really big kind of rain thunderstorm coming in and they couldn’t see it. And, you know, it was interesting that it was behind them and I just pointed it out to them. I go, how does that, how do you connect that with what we’re talking about? And in that moment, that’s where the value for the session really came.
[00:11:53] Brendon Le Lievre: Whereas, you know, normally it would be like, oh, that’s. Nothing. Let’s just ignore it. ’cause you’re right, presence is [00:12:00] not just, I’m here and I’m silent
[00:12:04] Damien Hughes: So how did you bring that into the conversation, that observation in the moment with that particular person? What was that like?
[00:12:13] Brendon Le Lievre: with the storm.
[00:12:15] Damien Hughes: Yeah,
[00:12:17] Brendon Le Lievre: Uh, so they were talking about career change and they were talking about a reasonable transformation in terms of what next for career.
[00:12:25] Damien Hughes: yeah.
[00:12:27] Brendon Le Lievre: And I think I said something like, I’ve been watching this storm come in as you’ve been speaking and I’m wondering if it’s relevant to what we’ve been talking about or how I think I use if ’cause how implies that it is and if allows them to say no, it’s not. Um, and so yeah, just gently kind of probed [00:13:00] and if they’d gone, oh no, that’s, I don’t know what you’re talking about.
[00:13:03] Brendon Le Lievre: How crazy are you? Or Why would you bring that up? I would’ve been like, all right, that’s fine. It doesn’t need to be something. But it felt like it was something. And then, and then it became this metaphor for kind of, um, the churns behind them, but the rainbow’s gonna be in front of them, and there were opportunities and.
[00:13:24] Brendon Le Lievre: Kind of, it’s washing away the, of the previous kind of self-imposed restrictions. It became this huge thing. It’s like, okay, so it was something good.
[00:13:40] Damien Hughes: I think that kind of scares me a little bit, that notion, um, because it. Now a sudden, ’cause you could not have curated that moment in time. Like, it’s not, like say you had control over the weather and you know, all of a sudden you and it, you know, it’s this notion of how well prepared can you be going into a coaching conversation?
[00:13:59] Damien Hughes: [00:14:00] Well, you, you can do a certain amount of things, but it’s in that moment of your observation, in your thought process that. That something happens, something emerges. Um, and whether it’s the environment, whether it’s the setup, and you know, I, I, I don’t think I’ve ever really done, I, I think you’ve got me curious about this.
[00:14:23] Damien Hughes: I don’t think I’ve ever done that with a client.
[00:14:26] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah, and, and I think it comes back to being present. ’cause if I wasn’t present, I wouldn’t have been watching for it. I wouldn’t have been looking for it. I wouldn’t have called it. Um, and also that not being attached to the outcome. ’cause I’m like, oh, this is definitely something. And then it’s not that, that would be. Coaching, but [00:15:00] it’s like, is this something? And they’re like, yeah. Like, okay, well is it? And they’re like, nah, are.
[00:15:07] Damien Hughes: Well, I, I think that’s possibly what I’ve really enjoyed about doing coaching is that freedom of letting something go, not, not holding any sense of attachment to it. Um, just offering it up and seeing where, where the person might take this. Um, and I don’t have to be attached to it. I think, I think that’s a hard part of coaching that often leaders when you’re, when you’re training new leaders and people into them, to that space of saying, this is a great skill.
[00:15:41] Damien Hughes: The letting go part is the, the element that they, they find most difficult. And, and I think possibly because of the, you know, that they’re coaching people that they supervise. You know, so that, that there’s a strong sense of attachment [00:16:00] to the responsibility they might have for that person, um, that the staff member, whatever it might be.
[00:16:07] Damien Hughes: Um, I think, and that’s why I see coaching as such a leadership skill ’cause the ability to just let it go and allow and allow it to emerge in the other person and, and trusting that process that something, something great will come out of this.
[00:16:26] Brendon Le Lievre: And that’s often what leaders say is, uh, the, the bit they like about it is the freeing of being responsible for outcome. It doesn’t all sit on them, then it has to come up with the solution. They can just co-design or work with the person to work out what it’s gonna be.
[00:16:47] Damien Hughes: Yeah. And, and maybe that’s, that’s an inflection point for me is why sometimes I doubt. Whether I bring value, because if they’re doing all the heavy lifting, what am I actually doing? Because ’cause [00:17:00] bringing value to a client is inherently an important part of what I do. Um, as much as I’d be happy to do it where I don’t need the money, um, you know, this is a career path.
[00:17:13] Damien Hughes: This is something that I want to do and, and be rewarded for accordingly.
[00:17:18] Brendon Le Lievre: Yep, I hear you.
[00:17:20] Damien Hughes: There’s that.
[00:17:22] Brendon Le Lievre: no. What happened there? There was a, like a, a tensing up. What happened, Damian?
[00:17:28] Damien Hughes: I know, I know. I, I don’t know. Uh, I think it, I think it reflects a wrestle that I have in myself sometimes as a coach and, and my c my clients might not see this. Right. They don’t see that tension. ’cause, ’cause my focus is on them, but I’m, I’m ever, you know, it’s that, is this valuable? And the, the self-doubt that I, I probably place in myself, which shouldn’t be there and, and [00:18:00] shouldn’t, is a violent sort of word to tell myself, this is what you shouldn’t do. Um, and I need to sit there and be more curious with it and go, okay, what is that about for me? You know, making sure that I’m providing value to, to the person in front of me. Well, who am I to determine what is valuable for them? I don’t know.
[00:18:27] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah. How do you find out? Um. And I smiled. ’cause value is, it’s on my whiteboard here. ’cause I talk to my supervisor about it all the time. Like how do you know when you’re generating value? What? What do you do to generate value? Yeah. How do you know when you create value? Just because it’s there. And I think where I’m at with it is you are allowed to enjoy something and get paid to do it as well.
[00:18:58] Damien Hughes: I don’t think.
[00:18:58] Brendon Le Lievre: you, most days I’m [00:19:00] pinching myself. I’m like, how could this.
[00:19:04] Damien Hughes: Well, most people wanna that that’s, that’s what most people want in a career and in whatever it is that they’re pursuing, right? They want to be rewarded. But I think when I go back to value, I think I would go back to, and you mentioned your mentor if you like, but I had a, um. A person who, if you like, mentored me over a long period in terms of my career, but they were a professional coach, you would actually know who they are.
[00:19:30] Damien Hughes: Um. In, in a coaching engagement they did with me ear early in my career, sort of setting up my career where I was going. They got me to do a, a kind of a mind map of what I imagined my career would look like into the near future. And I put a lot. So that was my homework exercise, if you like. And, um, I put all this effort into this sort of a four page mind map and I.
[00:19:56] Damien Hughes: Pushed myself to be really creative with it. So, you know, and [00:20:00] I’m stick figure, drawing type guy. Um, you know, really put a lot of thought into how it was constructed and how it flowed and that sort of stuff. And I brought it back. The idea was the next session to bring it back and she would then coach me through, uh, this mind that, um, but I can tell you now to this day.
[00:20:20] Damien Hughes: And that was, that was almost. Gosh, almost 12, 15 years ago, that mind map is still relevant to me and, and so for me, in a sense, there’s an attachment there that I have in terms of a mental model of that Coach gave me a significant amount of value. Now, they didn’t do anything other than say, okay. Drop a mind map where your career is going, what does it calculate?
[00:20:46] Damien Hughes: And you know, it calculated a whole lot of things that I’ve managed to achieve. And there’s so many things that I haven’t yet done, but there’s connected parts. And so that mental map has had real value and meaning for [00:21:00] me. And so when I look at that, I go, okay, how am I doing that now for my clients? You know, am I making sure that that, and maybe I’m putting too much pressure on myself.
[00:21:12] Damien Hughes: Um, because that’s what I valued at the time, and, and it’s still having, it’s a lasting effect.
[00:21:23] Brendon Le Lievre: The through line? Well, one of many through lines in supervisor training was, uh, my job is to show up and be present and help may or may not arrive.
[00:21:34] Damien Hughes: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:35] Brendon Le Lievre: And, and I often go back to that is just the need to be present, which, which is an active, conscious, connected thing, not just being there. Um. Physically, but to be really present and, and so that’s what I’m, I’m really exploring at the moment is [00:22:00] kind of what is presence?
[00:22:01] Brendon Le Lievre: How do you make it practical and understandable? ’cause I’m sure. You know, people have said to you in the past, oh, you’ve just got a great presence. And I’m like, what does that actually mean? Um, can someone, can, how do you define that? How do I coordinate and orchestrate that? How do I use that more intentionally?
[00:22:24] Brendon Le Lievre: What, what is this presence thing that people talk about so much? And that’s what I’m keen to explore that a little bit more.
[00:22:35] Damien Hughes: Well, I, I guess the question that, well, one question that comes to my mind is, well, what isn’t being present? If I can understand that, then I can start to make a way forward on what might be present. Um, I guess what the, the first thing that comes to my mind, uh, what isn’t being present is it’s my [00:23:00] agenda that I’m holding in front of me. Um. I think I can’t be present with the person if, if my, my agenda, whatever it might be, um, is, is placed first. Which, you know, I think that they pushed me into this notion of why i, I like coaching and it was never my intention to actually.
[00:23:25] Damien Hughes: Um, do a whole lot of professional coaching. Like, it was really interesting. It was like, Hey, this is a great skill. I love it. Um, but I don’t ever see myself as a coach. Um, and of course, you know, I’ve only recently managed to achieve the a CC level of coaching, which was, you know, a ni nice achievement. Um, but in a sense in the past I would’ve said, oh, that’s just drinking the Kool-Aid.
[00:23:46] Damien Hughes: Um, and I, you know, I can see that. But I guess for me, what really got me excited about coaching was this. The, the creativity of this co-created space, [00:24:00] you know, almost, almost like a childlike mindset to this of going, well, let’s, let’s just see what’s gonna happen. ’cause I really don’t know. And it’s kind of what you’re doing with these podcasts is.
[00:24:10] Damien Hughes: You know, there’s a sort of a, an instigation, but there’s almost a curiosity about where this could go. You have a podcast of this podcast, you know, almost, uh, and it’s, it’s that sense of there’s a mutual relationship that’s respectful between two professionals that want to do their best thinking. And I, I, I feel like that’s what got me excited about coaching.
[00:24:34] Damien Hughes: I. And I say to people, I say, you know, as a coach, my job in a sense is, is to help you do your best thinking. Um, and that, that freed me up when I, when I kind of, when that clicked for me, that freed me up from having an agenda. It doesn’t answer your presence thing. Yeah.
[00:24:55] Brendon Le Lievre: I wasn’t expecting an answer. I was, I was just curious about it, and [00:25:00] congratulations on a CC. That is a big achievement.
[00:25:03] Damien Hughes: I dunno whether I’ll go to the next level, but, you know, wait and see. I need the hours to do that.
[00:25:10] Brendon Le Lievre: That’s the challenge with getting 500 hours of coaching up. It takes at least 500 hours to do,
[00:25:17] Damien Hughes: Guaranteed. Guaranteed.
[00:25:19] Brendon Le Lievre: which is a lot of time coaching. Yeah.
[00:25:23] Damien Hughes: yeah, so I guess I’m. I’m not sure where my coaching will go in the future. I might’ve been more stressed about it in the past. Um, but I, I’m more open to what’s possible because, ’cause I’ve had experience of coaching people from the top of an organization to the bottom of an organization. Um, probably what challenges me in all of this is.
[00:25:59] Damien Hughes: When am I [00:26:00] being coached? Like, and when am I not being coached? Like, because there’s almost, it’s almost like it becomes an embedded part of who you are and how you operate. Yeah.
[00:26:14] Brendon Le Lievre: Every now and again, I’ll. Be talking to my wife and you know, just listen a little bit more or a bit more curious that she says it all the time. Don’t you use that coaching stuff on me? I know what you’re doing. I’m like, yeah, well, I wasn’t actually, but I suppose I was, I was being coach-like. Right. It’s a, it’s a good spot to mode to flip into, um, and, and has application in, in.
[00:26:45] Brendon Le Lievre: Facilitation in training, in workshops, in parenting, just being a good friend. All of that stuff, I think is, there’s opportunities everywhere to be more curious and listen better and be present.[00:27:00]
[00:27:01] Damien Hughes: I’m noticing that there’s some similarities in our stories, and I, I’d be curious as to what that means, but, uh, you know, I, I try not to coach. Certainly not my kids. Um,
[00:27:20] Brendon Le Lievre: cracked it with the kids yet. They’re not interested.
[00:27:22] Damien Hughes: I can’t, I can’t, um, although my, my two older kids, they’re, they’re more adult now, so they’re okay. But I remember my son saying to me, you know, oh dad, it’s so frustrating.
[00:27:35] Damien Hughes: You always ask me questions, you know, like, you always ask me questions and I’m like, oh, okay. So tell me what, what is it about that that troubles you? Uh, I just, and yeah, so some, sometimes I, I see that as, am I putting a shield up a little bit, you know, professional shield and, [00:28:00] um, ’cause it’s not about questions. Only we know coaching’s not about questions. Um, but I do know that hard to do good coaching work when you are. Deeply, emotionally attached to the person in front of you.
[00:28:20] Damien Hughes: And so very close, intimate relationships, you know, family. Um, and that, and, and, you know, even with friends, you know, it’s very hard. And so that separation, that that’s a mental discipline.
[00:28:35] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah.
[00:28:40] Damien Hughes: Mm.
[00:28:41] Brendon Le Lievre: How does that, like challenge, you were talking about earlier, how, how is that showing up in your coaching? The challenge of not being coach-like. Or when, uh, identifying when you’re not being coached like that with them. I think they were the words you used. How does [00:29:00] that show up for you?
[00:29:05] Damien Hughes: I think there’s a, there’s a few things. Um. It’s the, the first thing is the mental preparation for coaching. You know, creating space and time before I go into a coaching session. Now that might mean for me, could mean doing a bit of a, uh, a mindful exercise for myself. Um, picking up a piece of literature that I, I enjoy that reminds me of why I’m doing what I’m doing.
[00:29:36] Damien Hughes: Um. I think it’s it, it does come back to that value question. Um, I can find myself in the middle of a coaching conversation and things are going great, and I start to say to myself, I wonder if this person’s actually getting real value. [00:30:00] Here, like as in when I mean value, it’s not as in an equation of this is what they paid me, so this is, it should translate into a dollar equivalent.
[00:30:10] Damien Hughes: Um, I think for me, value is a, have they had this moment where they’ve shifted in their thinking? If, if that’s the moment I’m, I, I see if I can create moments like that. I know I’ve created value and so I’m, I’m almost as if you like, I’m hyper-focused looking for that and not. Dare I say that, that word present, not just being present, so it almost holds, does, does that make sense?
[00:30:36] Damien Hughes: It almost creates a barrier to, to, actually, I’ve gotta let that go.
[00:30:40] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah.
[00:30:42] Damien Hughes: Does that answer that question? Gosh, I don’t even know. It doesn’t matter perhaps.
[00:30:48] Brendon Le Lievre: It does not. Um, yeah, I mean the paradox is real, right? Um, around if you go hunting for the aha moment, you’re not as present, so [00:31:00] you’re less likely to find it. Um.
[00:31:03] Damien Hughes: And, and that has so much more to do about the story. I tell myself about who I am as a, as a coach than it is about perhaps the person I’m trying to help.
[00:31:16] Brendon Le Lievre: Hmm.
[00:31:17] Damien Hughes: So I’m trying to create this narrative in my mind, the story I make up about myself, about how I am am valuable, if you like. And so there’s a deeper work there, a much deeper work in terms of, I.
[00:31:31] Damien Hughes: And you could say it’s a confidence piece. Absolutely. That, but I think that’s just the surface level aspect of this. There’s something so much deeper in this, and, and that’s what I would tell people is why coaching’s so enjoyable is because it pushes me to my limit. It push. Each time I’m having those conversations, I’m, I’m asking an inviting myself to go to a place of discomfort, not just my client, my, the client that’s in front of me.
[00:31:56] Damien Hughes: Um, yeah.
[00:31:59] Brendon Le Lievre: I find it [00:32:00] useful to ask. I’ve started doing that and I know that that creates a expectation that there has been value. What was the value you took from today? Or how are you thinking differently based on our conversation? And again, just being okay with them going, oh, I’m not really sure yet. I dunno.
[00:32:23] Damien Hughes: Hmm.
[00:32:23] Brendon Le Lievre: I had a, a conversation with someone last week and first time we’d met, first time they’d had coaching, so I’d set it up a little bit with them as much as I could over email and, um. Sort of said to the, we were talking about career and I, I said, oh, well what do you, what do you want next out of career? Actually, what they were talking about is they’re saying, I don’t understand. I don’t understand. And I said, oh, you know, what would you like to understand about career? And they went, Hmm, [00:33:00] I have to go away and think about that.
[00:33:03] Brendon Le Lievre: I don’t actually know. And. Yeah. Earlier my coaching career, I would’ve been like, oh, they didn’t know and they weren’t clear, and they more confused when they left, and now it’s just like, oh, they’re more confused. That’s new thinking.
[00:33:21] Damien Hughes: I’d say that’s really interesting because it. It’s reminds me of a, so I love this pre-coaching conversations that, you know, a lot of professional coaches will do this. And I often say to people that, you know, you’ve got a good coach if they’re actually willing to have a conversation before they actually engage in the actual conversation more.
[00:33:41] Damien Hughes: Because I want to work with people that fit in terms of how I operate. Um, no point trying to coach someone who’s. Not that great. Um, now that’s a, that’s a judgment. I know. You can cut that out of the podcast or leave it in either way. Um, but this, this guy was, uh, came from a very technical [00:34:00] background and we had this pre-coaching conversation and he was wanting to advance his career, right.
[00:34:05] Damien Hughes: It was a big thing for him. He was getting a bit frustrated about how to move forward in, in the organization and, and in terms of his direction. And he was, he was fairly senior. And he was, you could sense the skepticism in the pre-coaching conversation about whether this would be useful or not. And in the middle of the conversation, I said, okay, so can I just stop for a moment?
[00:34:28] Damien Hughes: I just wanna ask you a question. I said, you’ve, you’ve identified two things and I clarified what those two things were with him. Is that correct? He goes, yeah. I said, what’s your decision process in order to decide which one of those two things you should do? He goes, oh, he goes, oh. I really don’t know actually.
[00:34:48] Damien Hughes: And I said to him, that’s what coaching is He goes, oh, and I never heard back from him. And you know why? Because I [00:35:00] knew he just wanted an answer. He wanted someone to say, take course A, don’t take course B. And, and you know, that’s probably. I, I don’t know how I got to that point, but it, it reflects that the importance of a, a clear conversation, but it’s also about how we educate people around what coaching’s actually about.
[00:35:21] Damien Hughes: It’s not some mystic thing, um, but it’s not about answers either. Yep.
[00:35:30] Brendon Le Lievre: Regularly say to people, it’s easier to experience than explain. So if you’ve got 10 minutes, we’ll do some coach like stuff. And, and when I get you to that moment where you’re like, oh, that’s interesting, or Oh, I don’t know, or, oh, good question. I’m like, well, that, that’s it. That’s what we’re aiming for.
[00:35:49] Brendon Le Lievre: That’s what you’ll get if you get to hang, if you work with me. And if you don’t want that, then go and work with someone else. ’cause I’m not gonna tell you how to live your life or. your [00:36:00] career or, ’cause I’m, I will get it wrong. I have come to terms with the fact that my advice is not as good as I think it is. And that’s fine. ’cause again, people are like, just tell me, just tell me. What do you think? Just tell me what would you do? You know, you, they’re kind of pushing for advice and I say to them, I’ll tell you what I’m thinking, but it’ll be wrong and I’m okay with that. And you’ll realize why I don’t give advice.
[00:36:31] Brendon Le Lievre: And they’re like, nah, it’ll be great. You work with heaps of people. You must have seen this a million times. You’ll know. I tell ’em and they’re like, that’s not that good. And I’m like, I know. Oh, that won’t work because of blah. Or, I’ve tried that and it didn’t work.
[00:36:46] Damien Hughes: This is, I I, I mean this is an interesting inflection point in terms of thinking about, um, and, and there is a, it’s easy for people that when they hear about what leader, uh, coaching is [00:37:00] in leadership and, and they see these almost what I would say is teachable moments. Let me share you my experience or my insight and, and it’s these teachable moments and I’ve been learning a bit through listening to some staff and reading some things and, and I think there’s a bit of a gray area for a lot of coaches in this as to is there a moment to teach here?
[00:37:22] Damien Hughes: Is there a moment to give some insight? Um, and then I, I’d get back into my coaching again, and I, play around with this a bit sometimes and. I dunno whether it’s it, you know, and I don’t wanna be a purist in this ’cause I’ve gotta be a little bit of myself and I’ve gotta understand that people, maybe it’s not advice they want, but those teachable moments, oh, here’s a model that you might want to apply to that situation.
[00:37:50] Damien Hughes: I don’t know. Is that, is that breaking the rules of coaching?
[00:37:56] Brendon Le Lievre: And then we, we can have the conversation about who’s the. [00:38:00] Umpire in coaching and why, who’s the rules Committee of coaching, but, um, I mean the ICF core competencies got updated and I’d have to go and open them to get the wording right. Exactly. But they have added in, um, something about appropriate advice, giving without judgment or without attachment. And I think if a framework or a model is gonna help the person organize their thinking, then that makes sense. But I, I won’t spend half the coaching session kind of talking about my career or my experience and what I came up with. I’m like, here’s, here’s some ways to distill it. Here’s a little bit of experience if it’s useful.
[00:38:54] Damien Hughes: I think what,
[00:38:55] Brendon Le Lievre: do with it now?
[00:38:56] Damien Hughes: what I’ve found has worked in that is, is I tend to [00:39:00] hold off as, as long as I possibly can in a coaching session before I potentially give them a model. And I, I give it as a, here’s a bit of a what I’ve observed, and I wanna give you a model and I might write it on a piece of paper for them and just explain it briefly.
[00:39:18] Damien Hughes: But then I give it back to them and say, okay, what parts of that model makes sense to you? And so I’m, you know, a, a moment in time and then seeing how they use that tool and they go, oh yeah, that makes sense to me actually. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Um. Yeah. I, I, I feel maybe, maybe what I’m saying reflects where I’m at in my coaching and, you know, maybe an MCC coach might say something completely different.
[00:39:48] Brendon Le Lievre: Would suggest they probably would,
[00:39:50] Damien Hughes: They, they would, um.
[00:39:52] Brendon Le Lievre: and that’s okay.
[00:39:54] Damien Hughes: And exactly. That’s okay because developing as a coach, and that’s it used [00:40:00] as a skillset set as a leader, it is a journey. It’s not a fixed place in time. It’s not like you do attend a course and hey press, I’ve ticked the box. I now, now have a coach. You know, if you’ve completed a course or you’ve done some coach training or whatever it is, it’s um, that moment in time is, is you, I’ve made a commitment to continue on this learning journey. Um, if you’ve got that certificate in hand, that’s what you’re actually doing.
[00:40:24] Brendon Le Lievre: Yeah.
[00:40:25] Damien Hughes: Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot in this. I tell you what, you’re gonna get a lot of value out of these podcasts if these are, if they’re like this, I think I.
[00:40:38] Brendon Le Lievre: I hope so. I mean, that’s why I like, I like them and I’m pleased I’m kind of, um, bringing them back. Do another run. ’cause yeah, I walk away from all of them going, oh, that’s good. I like that. I’ve, I’ve learned something there. I’d also like to add that I think you could ask, you know, five MCC coaches and you’d get 10 different points of view as [00:41:00] well, probably. Because they, they’re not a homogenous group in and of themselves, so. Hmm. Very good. Um, I’ve got some questions that I’m just gonna throw at your rapid fire here to close this out, Damien. Uh, so just go with kind of the first thought bubble that comes up and short and snappy tens to work. Uh, but yeah. Uh, first question is what fulfills you
[00:41:27] Damien Hughes: Uh, running and reading.
[00:41:30] Brendon Le Lievre: and what frustrates you?
[00:41:32] Damien Hughes: When I ruminate too long after a coaching session has ended, that frustrates me.
[00:41:40] Brendon Le Lievre: If you could recommend one book that everyone should read, what would you recommend?
[00:41:46] Damien Hughes: Only one.
[00:41:48] Brendon Le Lievre: Who wrote that one?
[00:41:49] Damien Hughes: No, no. I’m saying can I
[00:41:50] Brendon Le Lievre: Only one. Yeah, only one.
[00:41:54] Damien Hughes: Okay, I’m gonna stick with Quiet Leadership by David Rock.[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] Brendon Le Lievre: What do you most admire in those you work with?
[00:42:06] Damien Hughes: I, I’d put it down to their generosity. It’s their pa, their passion that they have, their ambition, it’s far greater than mine. Um, and they, they come with a growth mindset.
[00:42:23] Brendon Le Lievre: What’s your favorite coaching question?
[00:42:31] Damien Hughes: It is hard to say, but I, I reckon I, I love starting with this sort of question by the end of this conversation. Where would you like to be in your thinking? I think that’s a great question.
[00:42:42] Brendon Le Lievre: If you weren’t a coach, what would you be?
[00:42:45] Damien Hughes: I’d be different. Um, I reckon I’d be a philosopher.
[00:42:52] Brendon Le Lievre: And the last one is, if you could tell your younger self anything, what would you say?
[00:42:58] Damien Hughes: Uh, [00:43:00] so I’d say back yourself and don’t be afraid to try something new.
[00:43:07] Brendon Le Lievre: All right. Thanks for hanging out on the Coach Conversations podcast, Damien, it’s been lovely talking with you.
[00:43:12] Damien Hughes: You are welcome. Thank you.